Petrol vs Diesel

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by TekkMarine, May 22, 2017.

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  1. TekkMarine

    TekkMarine Maha Guru

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    Evening,

    Buying my first diesel car, looking at the same car in a petrol version with the MPG about a half less. Most advise ive been told has been against diesel cars and don't understand as to why when the saving is more than double on fuel compared to a petrol version.

    (mpg)
    Diesel:Urban 47.9, Extra Urban 70.6, 60.1 Combined.
    Petrol:Urban 24.1, Extra Urban 42.2, 33.2 Combined.

    My daily commute is 19.6 miles with heavy traffic, about £4.73 for a Petrol and £2.25 for diesel. Using Fuel-Economy.co.uk & the MPG urban measurement. I'm right in the sense that fuel savings won't outweigh servicing costs?
     
  2. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    Look up the "cost of ownership" for both models and see which is ultimately cheaper.
     
  3. TekkMarine

    TekkMarine Maha Guru

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    It's not that simple and new legislation for higher tax on diesel cars ontop of already more expensive insurance costs might be passed fairly soon.
     
  4. Reddoguk

    Reddoguk Maha Guru

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    Diesel cars are really bad at stop and starting on many smaller trips, Diesel only makes sense if you are driving for long hours and mostly in 5th gear.

    The Urban mpg of a Diesel is a myth, especially if you are stopping and starting the car a lot on small journeys.
     

  5. airbud7

    airbud7 Ancient Guru

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    That is^ "cost of ownership" Right?
     
  6. Barry J

    Barry J Ancient Guru

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  7. TekkMarine

    TekkMarine Maha Guru

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    Thanks, good read!

    Author does state however that it can be negated doing a high rev stretch every now and then. The cars also a BMW so i'm willing to put some faith in it's manufacturing.
     
  8. Coolerking

    Coolerking Member Guru

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    Diesel is the only way to go...especially when the zombies come and you have an unlimited supply of free fuel...just melt them down and burn away!!!
    Of course I'm kinda biased, I am in the desert southwest of the usa, and I have a 7.3 litre turbo diesel E 350 van....but hey!!
    Frankly if I only had a short commute and never drove the length of baja every few months, I wouldn't bother, its noisy, takes 15 minutes to warm up....but I love it!

    By the way the new diesels have a regen cycle that burn-cleans the converter and gets the EGR cleaned out from the DEF buildup.
    The length of the trip has very little effect on a modern diesel engine.
    :)
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  9. thatguy91

    thatguy91 Ancient Guru

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    The Ironic thing about that 7.3 is that it emits much more pollutants than any of the Volkswagen vehicles even when you take into account engine size. Pickups come under very different rules. It was purely a money grab, if Volkswagen were American you can guarantee 100 percent the fine would have been a fraction of what it was. Remember General Motors knowingly used defective engine ignition key locks for 10 or so years, even with the knowledge of the deaths and lifelong injuries. They got fined 10 percent of the Volkswagen fine despite hundreds of deaths, paraplegia, quadriplegia etc. Apparently cheating emissions for better fuel economy (increases NO2), but still emit less than non-passenger vehicles that includes pickups (even taking into account the engine size) is very much greater than 10 times worse than killing and destroying the lives of hundreds of people. When you take into account the number of vehicles affected in the US by GM, and the number of pickups etc with different emission rules, the figure is very much significantly more than the GM fine.

    I guess what can you expect from a country where a guy can spend $1 for a large pack of malt balls and sue for the packet having some free space. This has gone to trial, even though the packet was true to label in terms of weight and number of contents.
     
  10. Coolerking

    Coolerking Member Guru

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    Whoa....slow your roll sir, first, the 7.3 is also known as a navistar 444, and was used by Ford, not GM, it is a very reliable engine, known for routinely getting a million miles of use during its life. They are used in ambulances, farm equipment.
    But hey, ever seen a battery recycling operation?
    Talk about lawsuits....
     

  11. thatguy91

    thatguy91 Ancient Guru

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    I wasn't saying it was a GM engine. All those applications of GM, Chrysler, Ford etc diesels are in non-passenger class vehicles. These vehicles, even taking into account engine size, emit far more of the nasties than the Volswagen engines were. Yes, Volkswagen did the wrong thing, but should pickups be exempt from the same rules even though they are typical used as oversized passenger vehicles? They are, even if you do use them for other purposes. That aside, I think it's disgusting that GM can get away with over a hundred counts of knowingly causing manslaughter, destroying hundreds of peoples lives with lifelong injuries, and continuing to use the defective parts over many model years despite knowing this. Comparatively getting a gentle slap on the wrist against getting tens of billions from Volkswagen for cheating is bad. Imagine if things were identical but GM and Volkswagen were switched (Volkswagen lock, GM emissions). I doubt GM's fine would have been even as high as what it was for the ignition locks, yet they would have pushed Volkswagen with those 100+ cases of knowingly causing manslaughter and destroying peoples lives (and these are just the cases they know about).

    Apparently it has been found that in typical use scenarios, diesels emit more than they do in test scenerios even without cheating. This could be negated with using more advanced fuels, diesels do have the advantage of being able to run on several different fuel sources.

    If you do get a diesel, make sure you get one that is at least biodiesel compatible. It might sound like I was anti-diesel in my posts, I would actually quite happily own a diesel vehicle. I just wanted to make aware of the politics surrounding it as it could effect future vehicles. It's quite possible that they will stamp an emissions tax on it in several countries, which of course would just a be a tax grab since it wouldn't address the problem and that extra cost impost could go towards better quality source fuel.

    Since diesels are much better with constant load and not changing load, it's silly hybrid diesels haven't taken off. I'm not referring to full on plug-in hybrid, just something simple like electric assisted drivetrain powered by capacitors (storage for braking energy and engine production load), and providing assitance when driving powered by the engine.

    Of course, you could always go the route of LPG injecton, or even petrol injection! Might sound counterintuitive injecting LPG or petrol in with the diesel but it does very noticeably improve power, reduce fuel use, and improve emissions, and this reflects my earlier point. The issue with diesel engines isn't so much the engines, it's the crappy distillate fuel that needs to be replaced with something better. LPG/petrol injection proves that better fuel would be hugely advantageous.

    The real question is though whether that will actually happen, and if it did whether it would be a proper implementation or just enough change to keep people happy.

    BIG POINT - as it stands, current diesel fuel (distillate) will mean cars WILL NOT meet future emissions standards. I don't see adding a second or third DPF and catalytic converter as practical solutions.
     
  12. CalculuS

    CalculuS Ancient Guru

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    Diesel cars have triple the tax of petrol cars which is why they are more expensive.

    If you have a business and make a lot of miles it pays off.
     
  13. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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  14. Tat3

    Tat3 Ancient Guru

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    What do you mean with heavy traffic? Just moving slowly or many stops at traffic lights?

    If you have many stops are traffic lights and so, why not a petrol hybrid ?
     
  15. thatguy91

    thatguy91 Ancient Guru

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    Hybrids cost a lot of money and there are drawbacks in the current designs. I like the concept of electrically assisted vehicle over full electric or current hybrids. The idea it's quite eloquent and more viable for most people.
     

  16. slickric21

    slickric21 Ancient Guru

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    Have you driven both cars and actually factored in which one you like ?

    For simplicity and cost of servicing the Petrol version is usually the one to go for.
    Modern Diesels are incredibly complex and things can get expensive if they go wrong, or sometimes they require some expensive servicing (if you have them serviced at main dealer). Touch wood it won't go wrong though......
    High Pressure fuel injectors, turbos, DPF's, EGR's etc etc.
    I have a Mazda diesel and at 5years old it will require a £800+ sevice.

    However.......
    They have their pros...
    Often more powerful and livelier than their (non-turbo) Petrol cousins. Better Mpg- yes you will get better mpg around town than a petrol, but only slightly. Longer journeys where you are cruising is where they shine though.
    Cheaper road tax.

    Tough call, i'd drive both versions if I were you first. You may find one of them you like better than the other after a test drive.
     
  17. TekkMarine

    TekkMarine Maha Guru

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    It's moving slowly, lots of traffic lights.
    Petrol hybrid? ive considered it.

    The petrol is 1/3 more expensive for a half less MPG, that fuel calculator probably doesn't account for time sitting in traffic but rather some kinda average. Real data suggest that you can expect about 5-20% off your cars advertised MPG.

    The journey time to the dealership is quite a distance, will try out a Diesel variant this Saturday at a local BMW and make a decision.
     
  18. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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  19. Coolerking

    Coolerking Member Guru

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    That's a real informative article.
    Breathing air is bad for you, being uneducated is bad for you.
    I'm stunned.
     
  20. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    I guess there is some truth in that part given your stance.
    Reading clearly isnt your forte if thats all you got from it.
     
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