Windows 10 Queueing Frames in game (false fullscreen mode?)

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Andre Souza, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Wasn't there even something about WDDM upgrades that prevents 1607 to run the latest drivers?
    I too upgraded from 1607 when I got my RTX card specifically for that reason.
     
  2. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    nope, no function at all. just like pascal must be on 1511 or later
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  3. n3v3rm1nd

    n3v3rm1nd Active Member

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    No, flip mode will then not engage on any dx10.1+ game. 1709 is still the king
     
  4. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    You can but if you ever need to reinstall the OS it is a real pain to get everything working again correctly. Whereas with Steam, it takes mere minutes with over a hundred games scattered across various drives. Origin you can at least leave your existing installs intact, but you must go game by game to validate each game. The same with Uplay. The implementation is bad. Your defense of it has no basis. The end.
     

  5. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    I wish it was that easy, but it's very hard to track down what driver could cause standby memory fill and even if you find it, nothing guarantess MS will update it or if the vendor will do something about it. I could spend a whole day tracking the buggy drivers, but I think I may just update to the new Windows 10 2004 when it comes out and fingers crossed it will be stable enough without these bugs and issues MS managed to create and can't solve on some configurations.

    I even updated the drivers individually to get the latest ones. Guess what? The standby memory still creeps its ugly head anyway. so I am a bit discourgared to update, I would update ONLY to solve this problem, if it doesn't solve it I will feel I wasted a lot of time to be honest. I have no need for any new Windows features, I need a fix to the standby memory bug.

    My standby issue is quite severe as you can see here: https://imgur.com/a/sgrezrB

    At least that solves games stuttering, but its a band-aid, not a solution to something MS can't fix. Hell, even just by closing Chrome, the standby memory does not get flushed, quite concerning.
     
  6. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    How is the "king"? Its no different from 1803, it presents the standby memory bug. As for me, FSO work perfectly, same when I disable them, no issues there. Also, lots of games become super smooth with FSO, so when it works, it does it wonderfully. So who knows what "tweaking" you did to screw up a few things in your O.S.
     
  7. n3v3rm1nd

    n3v3rm1nd Active Member

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    Reading comprehension is hard for you I see. No Independent flip mode on anything after 1709 that is not a DX12 game.
     
  8. n3v3rm1nd

    n3v3rm1nd Active Member

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    Edit: He deleted the post above me where he called me an arsehole. Nice move!

    I'm still talking about Independent flip mode for dx10.1-11 games not the new presentation mode that they introduced with FSO. Two long rants and you still talked completely past what I'm saying xD

    Good job! xD

    Again for you little boy: In Windows 1709 you can run a dx11 game (my example will be GTA5) in borderless mode and it will run in independent flip mode which means in layman terms that it bypasses DWM and runs like fullscreen but with the benefits of a borderless mode. THIS only works in 1709 and I had the best frametimes on there. You know all those Unity games that don't have a real fullscreen but are DX11? All of those were amazing to play as I had no input lag from the double buffering of DWM.

    You can't force flip mode on any other Windows version and again you literally showed me that you have zero reading comprehension as you don't know what independent flip mode does.

    But I hope now you do sir.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
  9. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    Why would you want to use Borderless Fullscreen when FSO give the best frametimes/smoothness combining Fullscreen with Borderless while giving perfect frametimes with v-sync on? I always test games with FSO and without them, if it runs badly with FSO, I just call it a day, set it fo Fullscreen and use a custom fps cap. No game runs better on Borderless ever and FSO replaces Borderless by actually giving a better implementation to the games, it gets rid of Borderless problems and it brings the benefits of Fullscreen.

    As for you saying Windows 1709 that games on Borderless run with "Fullscreen benefits" that's BS and nonsense to me. Literally Borderless means the game will be a big windows on top of all windows with everything Windows has behind it. How can it bypass DWM if when you are using Borderless and everything is behind the game? This is one of the reasons why some games have perfect frametime on Borderless if you use v-sync, due to the DWM, since it synchs the game with Windows. On Fullscreen there is no synch, is just the game going wild, this is why FSO was implemented. To combine both and give perfect framepacing while enjoying the game enhanced on Fullscreen so no resources such as GPU are wasted. It's a fact it breaks some games, but more and more games work with this feature perfectly. As an example, this was the only way Battlefront 2 wouldn't stop micro-stuttering on my end, with FSO and Max Pre-rendered Frames set to 1 is an insanely smooth experience. Perfect gameplay. That's just an example.

    Kindly, could you provide me with sources that claim your fantacious claim on Windows 1709 Borderless bypassing DWM? Now if you mean this happens if you DON'T use v-sync, then we have nothing more to talk about xD. Because I actually use v-sync and never had an issue, if you are little tryhard that things v-sync will make your games "super slow", then I can see where are you getting all of your insane theories and your supposed "successful" tests. R6S on my end, Borderless at 75 Hz and locked 75 fps (perfect frametime due to Windows synch), perfection of an experience, zero stutter, zero lag, zero fps drops.

    BTW, keep being a smartass and behaving like an ape, saying people "lack this or what". That for sure will take you far. I will enjoy when you get banned from these forums. If you can't be civilized, my suggestion is that you get out of this forum.
     
  10. n3v3rm1nd

    n3v3rm1nd Active Member

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    1709 forces flip mode on games bypassing DWM. Here is a direct link to a MS Dev explaining it in a thread that discusses this issue that we can't force it https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/..._games_do_not_enter_independent_flip/eyjkpcf/

    You sir are extremely uneducated on this issue and have the rhetoric skills of a little child that trows a tantrum because It would't get its way that would even make Trump zealous. Calling me an Ape and a arsehole? Cmon dude, I never insulted you just said that you literally are not reading what I'm writing.

    Right now EVERY DX12 game can run in flip mode providing a fullscreen experience in borderless. I use borderless in any DX12 game as it runs the same as fullscreen, I never use vsync though as I can't stand the input lag it creates. I don't get why you think it would make them slower? A VRR display with vsync is fine though.

    And please stop insulting me as an ape okay?
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020

  11. rflair

    rflair Don Commisso Staff Member

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    Take it easy folks.
     
  12. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    Frame times are not affected by those presentation mode differences, as long as there isn't something off with vsync.
    Though you got a point that they revoming direct borderless mode in Windows is quite unfortunate for that Unity case (though there is FSE via command line with newer Unity versions).

    Still I prefer old fulllscreen exclusive mode without FSO, as I don't trust Windows to properly handle VRAM management in high pressure situations when DWM is involved.
    Nvidia btw. has kicked out presentation inside DWM for Vulkan with both fullscreen and borderless mode, it now always equals fullscreen exclusive without FSO (AMD did this since the beginning).

    Edit: Or not, for some reason it's DWM direct mode in Red Dead Redemption 2 Vulkan.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  13. n3v3rm1nd

    n3v3rm1nd Active Member

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    Yeah FSO can still create issues with vsync on. One specific case is Hitman Blood Money. With VSYNC on frametimes are ALL over the place, disable FSO and then they're fine. Without VSYNC it's fine at both cases.

    Yeah you can force unity games into fullscreen, Use it all the time when I need to. Unreal games can be forced with a config edit even if the game devs didn't built it in as a option.

    Still I hope that MS give us this toggle as I always play and played without vsync as I don't care about tearing. I grew up with it but having borderless but without buffering etc would be awesome. Stil think about the good ol days I had in 1709 :D
     
  14. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    Honestly, I just wanted to have a normal conversation with him, that's all, then for literally no reason he started to throw personal attacks and soft-offenses for no reason. I get he may be a troll or a kid, still I don't get why he choses this place to display his frustrations. What baffles me more are his "beliefs" about Windows 1709 or how he magically believes all games should be played with v-sync off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  15. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    Frametimes ARE affected, use any basic monitoring software. The difference is more notorious with v-sync on. Don't gas-light. You are saying that the fact Battlefront 2 is giving me perfect frametimes with FSO+pre-renderes frames set to 1 with no FPS limiter active+v-sync is all lies, even if RivaTuner reports a flat, perfect 16.6 ms at all scenarios of gameplay and with Fullscreen+FSO Off it doesn't, the frametime is all over the place and the graph shows evident messed up frametimes. And there's visible microstutter. Huh. Who would have guessed? I am insane and so are MSI Afterburner graphs, because apparently is always the same even if they are visible changes with one more or another. And these changes can also be seen on the frametime graphs.

    I am not saying FSO are perfect for all games, they are not. But they help a lot at some games, doesn't matter if you "trust" them or not.

    If frametimes on PC gaming weren't affected at any setting, ever, then why info like this exists?







    The only way to get correct frametimes without any of those tools is either using FSO on games that work correctly with them or using Borderless fullscreen, this is a fact, I've seen it with all games, with different computers, GPU's and processors. MSI Afterburner Frametime graph testifies this. The only way to get perfect frametimes on PC at Fullscreen is either using RTSS framerate limiter or new nVidia's framerate limiter if you disable FSO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020

  16. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    His type of person is quite frankly why "i'm" the troll, i don't put up with it where i can get away with not putting up with it in colorful language.
     
    Smough likes this.
  17. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    I got RTSS frame time graph running all the time.

    Probably some misconfiguration on your end, my frame time graph is a flat line in BFV in exclusive mode without FSO:
    https://abload.de/img/bfv_2020_02_04_15_07_lck0p.png
    Never seen any difference in any game without vsync (apart from that issue n3v3rm1nd already mentioned how FSO can screw up vsync for the worse).

    Oh, and please refrain from words like "gaslighting" when your entire post is just barrage of poor decoys without any real proof.
     
  18. n3v3rm1nd

    n3v3rm1nd Active Member

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    Yeah something weird is going on with FSO and VSYNC without a VRR display. My frametimes are completely fine and I play all my games with VSYNC OFF and FSO on.
    Maybe he is experiencing another downside of VSYNC? When you can't hold your refreshrate it has to fall back to half of it?

    Windows 1709 still forces flip mode on those non dx12 games, that's a fact. Has nothing to do with believing. I provided you with evidence that you're clearly ignoring. Thats fine, you can believe whatever you want even if they are fairy tales.

    If you don't have a VRR display then you are better off with VSYNC off if you want to have low input lag. If you don't care about that and hate tearing then yes, vsync (or scanline sync from RTSS) are the only options. Just have to live with input lag on a non VRR display. Those are just facts that have to be stated. Nothing wrong with that.

    You like playing with vsync on a non VRR display? More power to you but you have to state the fact that input lag at 75hz is really noticeable.

    You just have to relax a little bit and stop ranting that everyone is wrong if you get called out.

    EDIT: OH SNAP just found footage that I recorded on 1709 where you can see the tearing in Borderless mode in DX11 which is proof that the game ignores DWM. Uploading...

    DUN DUN DUUUN GTA5 running in borderless mode on dx11. Game is limited to 60fps via RTSS and as you can see it completely ignores DWM and destroys all of ya'll naysayers that say this is not possible. Here https://streamable.com/wq8bu

    Sorry that it's so shaky. One hand phone, other on the mouse ^^
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  19. janos666

    janos666 Master Guru

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    There is a midway compromise if you can achieve a constant frame rate = refresh rate: "low latency V-Sync" - http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=5380262&postcount=232 VVR is only needed when you want to keep the lag low and the tearing away with a fluctuating frame rate.
    The other alternative is FastSync which keeps the stutter of no-Sync but removes the tearing (with low latency impact) even with a fluctuating frame rate. Although that probably needs FSE (I never tried it with borderless modes).
     
  20. n3v3rm1nd

    n3v3rm1nd Active Member

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    I tried this low latency vsync compromise @60hz and it really makes it better by a good bunch but still not good enough. For older games or something like stardew valley/graveyard keeper I use scanline sync from RTSS which removes the tearing. Fastsync I think you need like a really high framerate I think?

    Yeah there are multiple options to remove tearing but the best one will be a VRR display. No tearing, lowest latency. Ordered one of those for my son and will upgrade too soon and use gsync with games where I don't need more than 144fps.
     

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