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Why is Output Dynamic Range *always* set to "limited" despite a monitor connected?

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by flexy, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. flexy

    flexy Member Guru

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    This is something which bugs me for years already, and we're talking decades of Nvidia drivers.

    The "output dynamic range" option "limited" only applies to TVs, not digital displays like monitors or VR HMDs. Yet, after every new install, this is set to "limited", resulting in washed out colours [for anything connected via HDMI, which nowadays most monitors are].

    Is there no way for the driver to see a digital display? Why is HDMI automatically assumed to be a TV?

    Previously, I did not only have to set to limited for my monitor (which is connected via DVI/adapter --> HDMI) but in particular for my Rift which is connected to the GPU's HDMI port, this had to be done manually via connecting a monitor to the respective port, so it seemed to have been a "per port" setting. After having connected a monitor to HDMI and the driver in NV CtrlPanel set to "full", the Rift then kept this setting.

    IN THESE latest drivers, I noticed that when I set to "full" on my desktop, that this also set the HDMI port to "full", without me having to connect a monitor and do this manually.

    Just wanted to ask whether this has changed, so that indeed setting this in desktop (say on a monitor connected to DVI) does now also affect HDMI? (TLDR: Has this maybe changed from a "per port" setting to a global setting?)

    Thanks!
     
  2. VAlbomb

    VAlbomb Member Guru

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    Probably legacy stuff and laziness, if it was set to Full and the TV doesn't supports it you get no image.
    I'm sure they could check before setting it to full but that would require extra code and thus extra work.
     
  3. kx11

    kx11 Ancient Guru

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    it's FULL by default for me and 8bpc


    my monitor is the samsung freesync hdr one
     
  4. MrBonk

    MrBonk Ancient Guru

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    Because of dumb HDMI EDID standards for TVs (Video content) that somehow get stuck into monitors for some reason.(probably compliance to be able to use HDMI) and it just causes problems.

    Usually you can edit it out with CRU by deleting all of the extension block stuff (You lose audio) and replacing it with a default one. Your monitor just gets seen as DVI then, and you don't have to worry about games switching to a video mode resolution and messing up the RGB levels, or games switching to a lower refresh rate + video resolution.
     

  5. mbk1969

    mbk1969 Ancient Guru

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    That`s why I stay away from only-HDMI monitors.
     
  6. janos666

    janos666 Master Guru

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    False.
    You still get a fairly recognizable image. You just get either elevated blacks and compressed highlights or hard-clipped shadows/highlights. A lazy user of a display which has low image quality (no matter how you set it up) might not even notice this for a time (unless they are shown it could be improved --- especially since most TVs have some form of "Dynamic Contrast" activated by default which can often mask this issue by constantly messing with the range...).

    True.

    Roughly 10 years ago it was common for HDTVs to lack proper support for Full Range RGB input (or it was relatively difficult and potentially quality-degrading to achieve the same thing through the Contrast and Brightness controls) and also to apply some non-100% zoom by default.
    At the same time, VGA cards either lacked support for YCC output (I mean converted, not native) or the conversion from RGB was low quality (low precision conversion and/or lack of dithering at the end, while 10+ bit output was also a taboo for consumers even if DeepColor was standardized for HDMI 1.3+).
    Hence VGA cards usually defaulted to Limited range RGB output for their HDMI ports (and often also applied some reverse over-scan or under-scan, whatever the VGA manufacturer assumed about an HDTV's default zoom setting).
    And it all got stuck for ages.

    And the main reason for this is consumer video formats all being YCC 4:2:0 (where Y is 16-235 in 8-bit, so a matrix conversion yields 16-235 RGB, though with floating point values in turth).
    Although, HDMI <2.0 didn't have support for 4:2:0 but 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 only, so HDTVs usually had (and will continue to have) YCC 4:2:2 processing internally (the input is always converted to this format inside the TV) which was also preferred by semi-professional applications (the same chipset was reusable across consumer and semi-profession products if needed --- think about presentation displays in studios which are often carefully picked high-end consumer grade displays with external HD-SDI converters or slightly customized television sets with native HD-SDI input modules in place of HDMI and/or DTV but re-using the same consumer grade display panels and chipsets with modified firmware).
    This also got stuck despite the steadily growing popularity (and quality) of game consoles (which are officially intended to be used with HDTVs) or even the semi-official recognition of those who play PC games on carefully picked TVs (or even do all their general "PC stuff" on them, like me, because it's easier to have a single display, especially if you have 4+ speakers placed around it and it doesn't make any ergonomic or economical sense to build several dedicated rooms or make stupid compromises at one just to minimize the hours put into the TV's meter).

    However, most TVs sold nowadays have proper support for Full RGB input (they properly recognize [or at least can be manually set up for] and convert whatever they get fed with) and some TVs do have native RGB or properly utilized YCC 4:4:4 internal procession in their "PC mode" (this varies, some TVs seem to be fully RGB while others are YCC 4:4:4 --- the usual sign of true RGB mode is the total lack of internal color management but that's just my empirical observation in general while YCC 4:4:4 sometimes retains the CMS [although CMS can always be buggy to begin with or can be arbitrarily disabled for PC/Game-like picture modes even if the hardware/software was fully capable]).
     
  7. VAlbomb

    VAlbomb Member Guru

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    Not false at all I owned a HP monitor(it was actually refurbished and sold under another brand but originally HP) that didnt support it and would display no picture when it was set to Full, not only on my PC but also video game consoles like a PS3.
    I believe the PS3 actually warns you about it too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  8. flexy

    flexy Member Guru

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    Yeah I am aware of how I could tweak this with CRU, but this issue is mainly also because of the Rift (which is connected to HDMI) which is not present/visible to Windows as a display, so there is nothing to edit.
     
  9. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    It would be nice if they kept the value set until a driver uninstall.
    I am forever checking displays are set to full which is a real annoyance when multiple displays are mirrored because the mirroring has to be undone first, check settings then mirroring enabled again for each display.
    Grrr.
     
  10. MrBonk

    MrBonk Ancient Guru

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    I didn't know this. That sucks.
     

  11. flexy

    flexy Member Guru

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    Logic would tell me that MOST displays connected to a PC, also via HDMI, are "digital displays" and work optimally with dynamic range set to "full". This should always be the default. This is why I don't understand that they still have "limited" as default.

    It's ironic since this option, while being less known and obscure for the average user results in *considerable* subjectively worse image (washed out grays, less contrast etc.).....which makes me believe that many, MANY (!) people who use monitors and especially VR like the Rift are having this issue, and don't even know about it.
     
  12. Maddness

    Maddness Master Guru

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    It's auto set to full for me using an LG OLED.
     
  13. X7007

    X7007 Maha Guru

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    same , that's ok . but sometimes it's bugged when changing to HDR and back or Alt Tabbing from HDR games. so still annoying
     
  14. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    The annoying part to me is if I try to set HDR mode in Windows 10 it uses the 'default' greyed out "limited" setting in the NVCP and there is no way to change it.
     
  15. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    I had this basic issue with a particular DP to HDMI converter that came free with something.
    ie not using hdr, but nvcp wouldnt let me select full or limited and it was set to limited.
     

  16. X7007

    X7007 Maha Guru

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    It's because hdr uses limited only. nothing to change about it. for me Full also causing flickering with 24 Hz which I always used Limited, because I use a hub that gives leds light like philips ambilight DreamScreen. . couldn't find the issue at first but it's the same quality if I choose limited in nvcp and black level Low on tv settings.
     

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