Why does 30 fps on PC not look as smooth as 30 fps on console?

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Darren Hodgson, Aug 20, 2020.

  1. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    No lmao. You can also get perfect frametimes on PC at 30 and still, the console will manage to feel better at the same framerate.
     
  2. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    I hate it that on PC we are not allowed to do that. Is it so hard for AMD or nvidia to implement these functions?
     
  3. MrBonk

    MrBonk Ancient Guru

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    This.

    A 60hz display with 1/2 refresh vsync or 1/2 Scanline Sync looks just as smooth 99% of the time as 30FPS console games. And we've been over this dozens of times. Not all 30FPS console games feel smooth, tons of them have frame time and framerate issues.
    You can easily get the same consistent 30FPS experience on PC provided the game doesn't have glaring issues (Like Horizon Zero Dawn and others) keeping it from working right. You just have to find the right combination of settings to work.

    I just spent 100+ hours recently playing Dark Cloud 2 on PCSX2 with Scanline Sync, and all the 3D sections run at 30FPS and it felt just as smooth (Random performance problems withstanding) as it would on console at 30FPS with proper frame pacing.
    In FACT, it felt better than the emulated version on PS4 that costs 15$ to download. (Which I paid for sadly and found out how badly it runs) That version has completely broken frame pacing and some kind of speed hack that makes it feel like the controller response/image is constantly speeding up and slowing back down to 30FPS. And there's tons of stuttering.

    Here's some 60FPS footage I just recorded of it on PCSX2 (Frame limiter disabled and Scanline Sync used to framelimit 60hz. As PCSX2 internally duplicates 30hz games frames to 60hz properly, so frame pacing is correct. DC2 is a mixed framerate game,60FPS in menus 30FPS everywhere else)
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1apToMFQsxsefDG8GHz-v2v4_3jml6red/view?usp=sharing
    And if you download the video and look at the properties you'll see it's a 60FPS video and the game is running at 30FPS with proper frame pacing and no stutter. Only slowdown at the end when the enemy drops items (Due to OBS causing a drop in emulation performance at that moment)


    Here's another video of Metal Gear Solid Portable Ops with a 30FPS cheat running in PPSSPP with internally duplicated frames to 60hz like PCSX2, frame limiter disabled and Scanline Sync to sync and frame limit instead. No stuttering, proper frame pacing. (You can also turn off frame duplication, and use 1/2 scanline sync and get the same result)
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MLvTvfS1eTbIELb0qeS4VdvnI7dgI3Y0/view?usp=sharing

    No, that's all in your head. You have created your own placebo.
    What do we need,Digital Foundry's frame time analysis tools laid over the top of some captured footage of the same game running on console and PC both at a proper 30FPS with proper frame pacing to convince you?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
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  4. sapo_joe

    sapo_joe Master Guru

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    30fps is 30fps.

    Maybe console games use some kind of blur to mask it.

    The good thing is that on PC you can play at 60+fps instead.
     
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  5. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    Are you mentally ill/trolling me? I mean this. So you don't know that you can use framerate limiters on PC to get correct framepacing at any framerate? Be it 30, 60 or in between? "You have created your own placebo." Please elaborate. You are literally gas-lighting my post without even knowing the basics of this or what I even meant. Answer me this: How can you get 30 fps on PC at 33.3 ms? Do you know? Seems you have no idea. What do we need? I don't know, maybe not having people such as yourself that comment on what others say without having a clue?





    How come you've been in these forums so long and you don't know to this date that you can get perfect frametimes with RTSS or the new nvidia framerate limiter?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
  6. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

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    Hitting 60 fps on PC is easy and cheap enough. Gsync/Freesync is still my favorite monitor upgrade, aim for a 60 minimum and let the fps run wild, no console game will come close. I'll lower settings and resolution until that's possible, even on modest hardware the visuals are likely to still be above base consoles.
     
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  7. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

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    Consoles do not run with the same amount of image quality, but that does not explain the in game stuttering you experience.
    I would expect close to similar performance on your rig:
     
  8. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    I can see lots of microstutter in that video and some hitching as well. It just baffles me into oblivion how some people can't say its not there or simply, can't notice it. At times, I wish I could reach those levels of cluelessness, maybe I need to develop some good "lazy eyes".
     
  9. Caesar

    Caesar Ancient Guru

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    Be careful of gaming console marketing:cool:

    ..........while graphically inferior and limited in terms of input methods and resources, console games tend to have better game play. When you put designers into console input constraints, they get more creative as a result. Plus, console hardware doesn't have to take business or scientific research processing requirements into its design, making it more game friendly, although not necessarily for the development tool......

    ............the best i can interpret things according to the post:
    Why does 30 fps on PC not look as smooth as 30 fps on console?
    ............;)

    It probably has smoother animation, more colorful, and a very matching lighting / shader style. In some gaming aesthetics, this does make it look more appealing and thus nicer.....:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
  10. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

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    Consoles have "better colors" and "better gameplay"? Ehhh, okay? The only thing consoles have better than PC as in frame-rate are numerous techniques to make 30 fps feel way better than on PC (tailored motion blur could be one thing) and some games on console may have less sudden stutters due to only having to develop to only one type of hardware, but that's it. Image quality on PC can be boosted by Reshade alone, can't see how a console is better than that? HDR? Sure, but a lot of PC games have HDR too these days. You can also use nvidia sharpen or AMD sharpen to get rid of TAA blurriness, can't see that being available on consoles. If that's not image quality, then what is?

    As for "better gameplay", literally no idea what you mean. Controler on PC? Check. K&M on PC? Check. Less input lag? Check. Hugely more fps? Check. Consoles do some things better than PC, but saying "better gameplay" without any sort of examples or reasoning is probably one of the dumbest statements I've seen in a while. Guess if we talk from a subjective point of view, then yeah, for a fanboy of anything in particular, what they have has the "best" because they say so.
     

  11. Caesar

    Caesar Ancient Guru

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    Please read again :

    ..........while graphically inferior and limited in terms of input methods and resources, console games tend to have better game play. .....................


    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/inferior
     
  12. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

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    "Lazy eyes" come with age and exposure to things that are bad for them.

    Apart from that, really think the tiny stutters in that video are gamebreaking?
    From what I did read trough various threads, some people run into really bad stuttering issues which mostly make the game unplayable, as much as that they give up and completely stop playing it, while others with similar hardware got the game running descent enough to be playable.

    Also note that the CPU used is holding the RTX back, what ever people like it or not, Intel's 4000 series is really starting to show it's age.

    What I understand from what Darren posts, he faces worse stuttering, probably in the degree of what I mentioned above.



    One with some counters I recorded on my own system, capped to 60fps, there are some dips now and then but the game is still fully playable.


    And another long one, without counters, using Windows build in game recording, downscaled from my native 1440p to 1080p.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
  13. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

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    This is strange, console players are fighting to make 60+ fps standard on console, and here we have PC players regressing to 30 fps.
     
  14. BlindBison

    BlindBison Ancient Guru

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    @Darren Hodgson I expect others may have covered this at this point, but you need to use the latest Nvidia Inspector's "Half-Refresh V-Sync" for a "smooth"/console-like/tearfree 30 FPS (assuming you're using a standard 60 Hz fixed refresh display).

    BlurBuster's has a low lag V-Sync guide or you can look at some of RealNC's posts on Guru3D, but usually people do (https://blurbusters.com/howto-low-lag-vsync-on/):

    1) Half-Refresh V-Sync (not Half-Refresh Adaptive since that won't work with the "low lag" trick as described by BlurBusters/in step #2). Note, you “can” do adaptive half refresh Vsync with an FPS cap, but you’ll have to experiment manually to find the exact value where you don’t get tearing and it’s usually closer to 31 FPS in my own tests/latency can’t be lowered as much it seems.
    2) Cap FPS either in-game to 30 (some ingame limiters have better latancy than RTSS like Overwatch's or BFV's) or with RTSS to ~0.01 beneath "true refresh"/2 -- you can find true refresh using online testers like UFO -- so, for example a 60 hz monitor might actually be 59.94, etc).
    3) Some go further and reduce the size of the flip queue/prerender queue either by using in-game settings like Overwatch's "Reduce Buffering" or by forcing something like Nvidia's Ultra Low Latency mode to further reduce latency with V-Sync ON.
    4) At 30 FPS I prefer to double buffer V-Sync rather than triple due to the added frame of latency from triple buffering, but triple buffering can greatly improve the way FPS dips are handled with only a slight increase in latency. In fact, I’m not even totally sure linear triple buffering would have more latency in conjunction with a just in time fps cap, but I’ve never seen tests conducted for this. In any case you can only force double buffered or double buffered adaptive from the control panel unless it’s an open gl game so perhaps it’s a moot point.
    5) Maybe use a controller since for some people they say input latency with V-Sync ON is less noticeable/pronounced when using a controller (I expect since a mouse is 1:1 movement perhaps).
    6) Camera motionblur can help mask the frame "judder" that is usually still present to some degree at 30 FPS (even a properly paced 30 -- see Zelda Breath of the Wild for example for a properly paced 30 FPS that still has visible frame judder since it doesn't appear to be using any form of motion blur that I can tell).

    Now, some console games do seem to be doing something "more" to get a very smooth looking presentation -- whether that's some kind of frame interpolation (I don't really know) or just very heavy motion blur, I'd agree some console games seem to be using some custom solution to appear incredibly smooth even at 30 fps.

    Very interestingly in my own local tests using G-Sync then using an FPS cap to output at 30 FPS, it does not appear as "smooth" looking as 30 FPS with FPS cap + half refresh V-Sync on a fixed refresh 60 hz display. Have tested this back to back on a laptop then G-Sync on desktop.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
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  15. BlindBison

    BlindBison Ancient Guru

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    @Mineria Personally I find microstutter/hitching/stutter in games unbearable -- it's incredibly jarring for me. For me, stutter is the single greatest evil in gaming (even moreso than input lag which is itself a great evil in gaming too ofc) -- yet strangely many PC ports in my experience appear to have a stuttering problem of some kind (and I have a 3900X + 2080S @1440p w/ G-Sync w/ NVMe SSD).

    Games/ports that go to great lengths to prevent such stuttering behavior should be commended in my view -- so, like DOOM Eternal for example or in my own tests at least something like Red Dead Redemption 2 are great examples of games that don't have stuttering problems (for me at least) and I greatly appreciate that. Meanwhile you have games like the Horizon Zero Dawn port or Arkham Knight which stutter very frequently for me and it drives me absolutely mad.
     
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  16. BlindBison

    BlindBison Ancient Guru

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    @Smough those are some useful resources/videos you linked above -- just wanted to point out that in my local tests there are "some" games I've tested that do misbehave with an RTSS/Nvidia FPS limiter cap so though most games "usually" work fine and dandy occasionally you run into a game that misbehaves/stutters with those external limiters despite a perfectly flat frametime graph.

    For example, the Master Chief Collection outputs a smooth 60 if I use the in-game limiter for Halo Reach for example, but if I try to cap to any value (including 60) with RTSS/Nvidia FPS limiter it stutters frequently (despite a flat frametime graph). I saw this same behavior in a couple of other early DX12 games iirc. It's rare, but not "every" game will behave correctly with an external limit sadly -- in those cases though either letting the game run into the monitor refresh or using the in-game limiter appeared to resolve the behavior (for me at least). Anyway, just something OP should be aware of perhaps.

    EDIT: Regarding your comment as to why 30 feels better on console still, I have noticed that the latency of 30 FPS on console is often still quite responsive compared to what I can achieve on PC even using the Low lag v-sync guides. One game I was able to achieve terrific latency results at 30 fps with half-refresh v-sync on and that game was overwatch -- in-engine cap set to 30 fps (in-engine limiter further reduces latency in this case VS RTSS) + in-game Reduce Buffering setting ON + Nvidia Inspector Half-Refresh V-Sync ON for a 60 hz fixed refresh panel -- latency results were surprisingly good with this setup. I expect what console games are doing/can do that you "usually" can't on PC is that they're using "proper" in-engine fps limiters with a latency reduction (like OW's / BFV's) in conjunction with something like that "Reduce Buffering" setting + half-refresh V-Sync (double buffered to reduce latency over triple buffered). It is possible to get very playable/responsive results (especially if you use a controller) doing all of the above for games that actually let you do so. In most cases though you're stuck with Nvidia's ULLM mode (not quite as good as OW's ingame reduce buffering setting for latency reduction) and RTSS (not quite as good as the best in-engine limiters for latency reduction) hence why latency is greater on PC. This same sort of thing should also be doable on BFV given it provides the same tools iirc. That's what I gather/my best "guess" for now at least -- many games on PC just don't give us the tools to make a truly responsive 30 fps (though we can sort of get close with external tools).

    As for "smoothness" on PC I have been able to get games to appear as smooth as, say -- "Breath of the Wild" for example as that game exhibits visible frame judder and doesn't appear to have any motion blur. On console I expect they may be doing some sort of frame interpolation trick or just making use of heavy motion blur to mask the frame judder? Not totally sure on that one. Still, a "smooth" looking 30 FPS is certainly doable on PC in general :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
  17. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

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    It also comes down to that most use a fast mouse and keyboard compared to a gamepad on a console.

    Experienced a few streaming hitches with SWTFO now and then, but no micro stutter affected by mouse movement like I did with the Mafia III remake when I used both HAGS and ULLM at the same time, personally I prefer HAGS over ULLM.
    I can agree to that streaming issues like in SWTFO shouldn't exist at all with hardware that outperforms current generation of consoles.
     
  18. Darren Hodgson

    Darren Hodgson Ancient Guru

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    Funnily enough, I played the Marvel Avengers Beta on PC over the weekend and that is a game that is not well optimised for smooth gameplay above 30 fps as I found out. Even with a cap of 60 fps the game was choppy and stuttery in both cutscenes and gameplay. Capping it to 30 fps though completely fixed the stuttering and, what's more, it actually looked and ran as smooth as I would expect a locked 30 fps console game to run at. While the game itself is not brilliant, I did nevertheless manage to enjoy the game far more this way.

    Most games when capped to 30 fps just do not look or run as smooth so it seems to me that Marvel Avengers is developed first and foremost to run at 30 fps on both consoles and PC. That might explain why its 30+ fps performance is so disappointing.
     
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  19. smashmambo

    smashmambo Active Member

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    Since tightening my primary / secondary RAM timings games look much 'smoother' at low frame rates. I don't run software to measure why this has happened but it's definitely real and not a placebo.
     
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  20. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Most stuttering is now because of your slower system ram. 1600mhz vs 2400mhz cl10 can make a big difference, especially by newer games. Heck even by rise of tomb raider.

    If you can find cheap 2400mhz ddr3, just do it! :D
     
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