Wafer Shortage Now Also Pushes Prices Upwards

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    Spoken by someone who truly has no clue what he's talking about.

    Anything of value can be used to "launder money and avoid paying taxes", in fact if you're trying to avoid paying taxes with dollars, you simply pay with cash and receive cash as payment. There's nothing you can do with cryptocurrency that you can't do with a physical dollar, except, with cryptocurrency there is a ledger you can't, no matter how hard you try, destroy. There will always been a record of you sending and receiving cryptocurrency, but a pass from one person to the other of a physical dollar? None at all.

    It's because this community has gone far, far down. Instead of being a community who appreciates hardware and talks about it, it instead has turned into (in the last few years) to tin-foil hat and higher-than-thou hatred.
     
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  2. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    Part of the problem is the constant "tight supply" excuse that seems to pop up annually to justify price increases. From the outside looking in, when multiple segments of a market experience "tight supply", it looks like 1 big conspiracy. When said supply restraints suddenly affect a market that's reportedly in decline as drastically as has been seen over the last several months, people are more inclined to start thinking about conspiracies.

    RAM shortages
    GPU shortages
    Wafer shortages

    Those are 3 major shortages....and all cropped up over the last several months. All 3 directly impact the PC market, raising prices. The PC market is reportedly shrinking. That means companies look for reasons to raise prices to maintain or increase profits to ensure shareholder satisfaction. What's the easiest way to justify a price hike? Supply shortage....
     
    Neo Cyrus likes this.
  3. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Yeah sure, that's going to save us all! Game only on your Ryzen CPUs! :rolleyes:;)

    On a more serious note, I tend to believe this is all BS and "fake news", no shortages at all. For such a business with money behind it, local governments always prioratize such a company.
    To be honest, I even would believe they'd help that company more than 10 families not having properly processed drinking water if something told me that.

    I guess @sykozis is right, a "shrinking" market makes them see their revenue decrease, so they are trying to up the profit margins. Probably the only "truth" behind it.
     
  4. NaturalViolence

    NaturalViolence Active Member

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    This is most likely the actual reason. It still makes me mad that they jump to such ridiculous conclusions.

    ^THIS. If more consumers got to see first hand how their products are made (especially in the semiconductor industry) I guarantee they would never ever complain about high prices ever again. They would be astounded that a modern cpu can be bought for under $10,000.

    That's literally what they are doing. As an industry they spent 30 billion dollars just last year on this. And this number has been going up by about 20% a year which is insane. Once we break 10nm fabs are going to be insanely expensive since we will have to start shielding from quantum tunneling at the dielectric level.

    When a shortage exists prices go up and the industry uses the extra revenue to up production until the shortage no longer exists. This allows the business to make more money while also better filling the needs of the market. This process takes time but we saw it happen with HDDs and we are already starting to see it happening with RAM. We will start to see it happening with cpus too soon. I hate to be rude but come on, didn't any of you guys at least take an econ. class in college?

    This is literally just supply and demand. Supply goes down or demand goes up and there is a shortage that raises prices. Why is it always about "screwing customers" anytime prices on anything go up? Are there really no other explanation as to why prices of any goods would ever fluctuate? Do you really believe that? This has nothing to do with anti-trust laws so I don't know why you're bringing that up.

    I'll repost my original questions since it's still relevant now: "Are they supposed to NOT raise prices when the product demand goes up so that the shortages get even worse while they lose money? Should they just stop building fabs so that their competitors pass them and they go out of business that way you can temporarily see $2 lower prices on your cpus?"

    It's not a "justification" if there is tons of data from different sources showing that the shortage is in fact real. A justification would imply that the shortage was made up as an excuse. I know that nobody wants it to be real but that doesn't change the facts.
     
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  5. sammarbella

    sammarbella Ancient Guru

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    Where the "democracies" are not ruled by big corps interests some really strange things happen....:

    https://www.Disney.net/industry/3186-chinese-government-investigating-dram-price-fixing-allegations

    Edit: Source is "banned" from here LOL

    Let's try another:

    https://www.kitguru.net/channel/gen...-is-investigating-dram-and-nand-price-fixing/

    Yes ,this one is not banned...yet.

    Just in case there is another one, i guess REUTERS is not going to be banned as source any time soon:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tiny-on-chips-after-price-surge-idUSKBN1EL017
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  6. fOrTy_7

    fOrTy_7 Master Guru

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    You were saying...

    http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/sa...000-wafers-damaged-for-nand-flash-memory.html
     
  7. Prince Valiant

    Prince Valiant Master Guru

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    Perhaps because it's an industry where such things are common?

    "The Taiwan-based company generated net profits of NT$3.29 billion in the first three quarters of 2017, up 196% from a year earlier, with EPS reaching NT$8.06."
    If a near 200% increase in profit is supply and demand and doesn't look remotely suspicious I don't know what to think. Consider that this is on top of almost everything else creeping up in price so it shouldn't be a surprise when people are distrusting.

    Edit:
    I have no issues with companies being profitable and I don't demand anything of them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  8. Texter

    Texter Ancient Guru

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    Translated to US dollars they went from $38M to $112.8M profit over $1.58B revenue...and that's supplying over 1/6th of wafers to a $400B+ annual revenue semiconductor market. Imagine if they were doing a bit worse before, then they'd have a 10,000% increase in profit, just by being profitable at all.
     
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  9. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    There's also tons of data from different sources showing a shortage in DRAM supply.... However, China is investigating price fixing in the DRAM market because even they suspect that the "shortage" is manufactured and not genuine. When there's only a handful of companies in a given industry and no oversight of said industry, it's easy for those companies to manufacture a product shortage to justify price increases. China suspects that SK Hynix and Samsung are engaging in price fixing and intentionally shorting supply to justify increased prices. It's not hard to believe that the same thing is taking place here. I mean, lets get realistic here. First was the DRAM shortage. Then there's a GPU shortage. Now there's magically a wafer shortage? There's no reason a wafer shortage should exist in an industry that should be expanding rapidly. As more things become computerized, wafer production HAS to increase. According to these companies, we've already exceeded the wafer supply rate. Why haven't they expanded to account for the increase in wafer demand?
     
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  10. NaturalViolence

    NaturalViolence Active Member

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    That's pretty common in the semiconductor industry for supply shortages. I'm not sure how that proves the shortage isn't real or the companies are part of a conspiracy.

    Could they? Yes, it's possible. Is that proof that they are? No, that would be an assumption.

    Do you really think crypto mining taking off is part of the conspiracy too? Come on, let's get real here. These are caused by different events. There is nothing you can use to connect them so why are you trying to do that?

    Actually there is a very good reason. Wafer quality is going up at the same time that demand is exploding. You can expect more shortages in the future as a result. It's also important to note that these shortages are only effecting certain types of wafers.

    I don't like when people make assumptions like this. "There is no reason". Really? Did you try asking someone who works in the industry or did you just assume that?

    Because it's phenomenally time consuming, expensive, and hard?

    They have been and continue to expand. They just aren't expanding quite fast enough for certain wafers. I don't know why everyone thinks these companies can just press a button and make certified facilities appear and start pumping out perfect products at high yields. If you talk to some of the people working in these industry and see what they do you'll quickly realize that it's just not that easy.
     
    Noisiv likes this.

  11. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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    Bunch of commies all of them.
    (Only difference I admit of being one :D )

    They'd have no problem with someone setting the maximum GPU price. To hell with the company, its expenses and its future.
    But if you propose the same for water or for bread, they'd be liek: DAFUQ, THIS NO SOVIET RUSSIA. WE HAVE TO LET THE MARKET TAKE CARE OF THAT!
     

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