vinyl record VS digital

Discussion in 'Soundcards, Speakers HiFI & File formats' started by vestibule, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. vestibule

    vestibule Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,090
    Likes Received:
    1,328
    GPU:
    Radeon RX6600XT
    Hi guys.
    I have a burning question to which I hope you know the answer to and under stand my question.
    vinyl is back, but in this digital age is it possible that the quality of the vinyl press will only 16 bit like cd or will it always be 24 bit or higher.
     
  2. mbk1969

    mbk1969 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    15,541
    Likes Received:
    13,561
    GPU:
    GF RTX 4070
    That`s only the question of the sources for vinyl press.
     
    user1 likes this.
  3. DAW40

    DAW40 Guest

    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    37
    GPU:
    EVGA 1060 6GB
    You can do 32bit 384Khz then with your DAW you can convert digital to analog. It will sound the same as if you put a vinyl record on the needle.
    I have been producing music for 21 years so I know. hehe :)
     
  4. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    4,953
    Likes Received:
    3,230
    GPU:
    4070 Ti Super
    If you record vinyl into a 16-bit 44.1khz file, it will sound exactly the same as the vinyl.

    If you record a badly mastered source into a 16-bit 44.1khz file, it will sound exactly as bad as the badly mastered source. Garbage in, garbage out :)

    In other words: vinyl doesn't sound better. It's just that the original source material that's used to press the vinyl from is very often mastered better than the mastering done to press CDs from. See "loudness wars". It's a huge issue since the mid-90's, where many CDs are mastered in such a way that makes them sound horrible compared to vinyl records. Unfortunately, that bad mastering very often also extends to non-CD releases (like iTunes or Spotify and such.)

    As for 16-bit vs 24-bit, there is no difference when you listen to audio. 24-bit is only useful when you're working on the audio in a DAW. You can take an "HD" audio file (24-bit, 192khz) for example and convert it to a 16-bit 44.1khz file. It will sound the same. In fact, on many consumer audio equipment, the HD file can actually sound worse. See:

    https://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

    Higher bit-depth is harmless though. 24-bit will not sound better, but it doesn't harm either.

    It's been known for a while now that 16-bit and 44.1khz is more than adequate to fully transparently digitize audio with. In fact, 40khz is fully adequate, so 44.1 is even a bit of an overkill already.

    Too bad the music industry messed it up with the loudness wars and now people resort to vinyl in order to get decent quality, which of course then means you need to deal with pops, crackling, needle drops... :-/

    Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent here. To answer your question of "is it possible that the quality of the vinyl press will only 16 bit like cd or will it always be 24 bit or higher":

    Vinyl's dynamic range is about 60db. A CD (meaning 16-bit) has a better dynamic range (96db.) So not only isn't vinyl as good as 24-bit, it's not even as good as 16-bit. However, it's adequate, and the better mastering on most vinyl records offsets the worse dynamic range. Most contemporary music CDs have a crushed dynamic range due to the loudness wars mentioned above, meaning they're not actually making any use of that 96db range.

    Note however, that CDs that are properly mastered and are not victims of the loudness wars will sound better than any vinyl record ever could. Sadly, contemporary music CDs that are properly mastered are quite rare these days.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
    vestibule, HandR and DAW40 like this.

  5. DAW40

    DAW40 Guest

    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    37
    GPU:
    EVGA 1060 6GB
    Nice post RealNC ...... Yes I do my projects at 24bit 96Khz and when I make mp3 or audio CD it sounds exactly the same as it did when I was working on the project. So ya as long as you choose 320Kbps ,,, Also FLAC files are quality as well,, theres no compression being done.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  6. Chastity

    Chastity Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,738
    Likes Received:
    1,662
    GPU:
    Nitro 5700XT/6800M
    I really wish MP3 can be forgotten. Seriously. Musepack and later AAC are superior compression tech.
     
    DAW40 likes this.
  7. DAW40

    DAW40 Guest

    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    37
    GPU:
    EVGA 1060 6GB
    or FLAC, Free Lossless audio codec.
     
  8. antonyfrn

    antonyfrn Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    7
    GPU:
    EVGA GTX 1070 FTW
    With Vinyl I know back in the day few people who would have their stuff pressed to 12 inch dubplates due to the difference in sound. I know main difference was the cost but never really noticed the difference between a 10 inch dubplate.
     
    DAW40 likes this.
  9. DAW40

    DAW40 Guest

    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    37
    GPU:
    EVGA 1060 6GB
    Yes, no sound difference at all like you said. It's just for show you know.
     
  10. antonyfrn

    antonyfrn Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    7
    GPU:
    EVGA GTX 1070 FTW
    I will say my hearing probably is going from falling a sleep in speaker boxes in raves when I was a younger. Friend was saying about this 12 Inch dubs apparently it something to do with the base, as he was the one getting them pressed back then.

    But I dread to think how much they would cost to press now days I don't think there are any pressing plants left in the UK.

    I remember getting a 10" dub pressed over north London would cost about £25 a side also heard that the 12" dubs cost about £50 per side. Think I was lucky at getting my copy of LION5 pressed I paid £25 for the dubplate.
     

  11. DAW40

    DAW40 Guest

    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    37
    GPU:
    EVGA 1060 6GB
    This discussion is never going to end LOL. Bottom line we live in a world where you dont need vinyl or CD, you just need mp3. Thanks
     
  12. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Guest

    Messages:
    6,952
    Likes Received:
    960
    GPU:
    GTX1080Ti
    Bottom line is analog is superior to sampling. The opinions revolve around subjective tolerance for distortion and dynamic range...both of which are far superior for analog. While CD's may exhibit more dynamic range due to processing, in practice, albums are more faithful to the source material.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  13. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    4,953
    Likes Received:
    3,230
    GPU:
    4070 Ti Super
    Actually, no. Analog is not a transparent medium. Digital is. You have to have a very high quality analog system in order to come close to the quality of "cheap digital."

    And can you elaborate on the "CD's may exhibit more dynamic range due to processing" part? The dynamic range is simply the result of the bit-depth. 16-bit = 96db DR. What processing are you referring to?
     
    DAW40 likes this.
  14. Barry J

    Barry J Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,803
    Likes Received:
    152
    GPU:
    RTX2080 TRIO Super
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
    DAW40 likes this.
  15. Chastity

    Chastity Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,738
    Likes Received:
    1,662
    GPU:
    Nitro 5700XT/6800M
    Forget vinyl, the One and Truly King of analog has always been copies of the reel-to-reel studio masters. (Assuming the studio does analog masters these days)
     

  16. Size_Mick

    Size_Mick Master Guru

    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    463
    GPU:
    Asus GTX 1070 8GB
    One thing that's always made me curious: Wouldn't it be possible to mimic the sound of vinyl on a really good digital system with a good EQ and pre/post-processing effects? I simply can't believe that the "warm" sound of vinyl can't be reproduced digitally.
     
  17. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    4,953
    Likes Received:
    3,230
    GPU:
    4070 Ti Super
    This kind of statement is what makes me wanna strangle kittens.

    Yeah, you just connect the output of your vinyl player to a digital recorder. It's going to sound exactly the same.

    Why is it so hard for people to understand this? Digital will record EXACTLY the sound you tell it to. If your source is vinyl, it will sound EXACTLY like that when you play it back.
     
  18. Size_Mick

    Size_Mick Master Guru

    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    463
    GPU:
    Asus GTX 1070 8GB
    No no, I meant that a digital source (CD, file, whatever) should be high quality enough that with a good amp, PP and EQ you can make it sound as though it's vinyl (even with slight pops if that's what you're into).

    Sort of like when Hollywood types shoot something digitally then process it to look like it was filmed on an old-timey camera.

    The thing is, I don't see people rushing out to by picture-tube TVs so they can have that old-style look for the programs they watch. Why would anyone buy a record? If it's a difference in sound quality, I can't understand why you wouldn't be able to make it sound like the record with a little trickery (unless they ****** up the digital remaster, e.g. remixing it).
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  19. drandiiski

    drandiiski Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    193
    GPU:
    MSI GTX 1060 6GB OC
    Well you surely can add a noise filter on top to make it sound worse and mimic an old vinyl, but that’s the first time I see someone wanting that ..

    Seems to me that vinyls nowadays are just a fashion statement. Considering that no studio in the world records in analog, what’s the point? You are just converting a digital recording into analog format and on top of it, most of the users will convert it back to digital, if they are not using a retro audio setup…
     
  20. lantian

    lantian Guest

    My two cents.
    Most people who think that vinyl sounds better than digital have never heard digital audio from a proper high end dac based device and therefore think that analog/vinyl sounds superior and more real. That is simply not the case, Second difference that gives vinyl recordings warm sound characteristic is that the bass is recorded mono on all stereo vinyl records. Reason for that is the limitation of tracking needle.
    Most digital audio players and cd players rely on low end dac chips that can never do justice to the digital recordings they are being fed, pretty much until you get a device with a flagship dac, you will never hear the full audio file, only parts of it.
    In my opinion cd sound better than vinyl and dsd is transparent enough to sound just as sublime as tape does.
     

Share This Page