VESA Introduces DisplayHDR True Black High Dynamic Range Standard for (OLED) and Emissive Displays

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. Hilbert Hagedoorn

    Hilbert Hagedoorn Don Vito Corleone Staff Member

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  2. nevcairiel

    nevcairiel Master Guru

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    These low-black-level HDR standards are all nice and all, but personally I would always favor a "true" HDR setup with higher brightness. For gaming, even an illuminated keyboard can reduce the benefits from lower black levels, not to mention that fully dark rooms are not something everyone has access to.

    But I suppose the OLED makers are pushing VESA to do this, so they can slap badges on their displays as well.
     
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  3. clamatac

    clamatac Active Member

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    I personally prefer good blacks and contrast that bigger brightness values.
     
  4. fry178

    fry178 Ancient Guru

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    @nevcairiel
    Lol, only lg and sony are making oleds (outside phones/tablets), and i know sony isnt pushing it (i work for them). Cant speak for lg tho.

    And im not blind, so will always prefer improvements on blacks, rather than brightness.
     

  5. ttnuagmada

    ttnuagmada Member Guru

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    There is nothing "truer" about the HDR of a bright LCD monitor. Even those 2000 dollar 144hz FALD monitors can't break 1500:1 ANSI contrast. Rtings rates their HDR capability as being marginally better than the CHG70, and fairly mediocre overall. There is absolutely nothing "HDR" about that. There's a reason that the OLED televisions win best HDR television at the VE shootout every year despite there being LCD TV's that can get 3 times as bright. What you want, is a bright monitor. There is nothing specifically HDR about being bright. It's the combination of being bright while producing dark blacks at the same time that makes for a good HDR display.
     
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  6. nevcairiel

    nevcairiel Master Guru

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    Except that the full range of dark blacks as seen on OLEDs does require a fully light-controlled room to really stretch its legs. So while it may win awards with "measured" performance, for many people with average viewing setups, the situation is quite different.
    I'm sure plenty people will say something like "But HDR is meant to be played in a dark room", but shrug, thats not something everyone can or wants to invest into (or only play at night).

    Anyhow I haven't really kept up with HDR gaming monitor contrast, but LCD HDR TVs can do 6000:1 contrast at ~1500-1600 nits of peak brightness (for small highlights, of course, as HDR would use it) without FALD, or 20000:1 with it.
     
  7. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Ancient Guru

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    How many VESA HDR standards are there? How about make only one, serious, standard to which all screen has to be compared? Oh, this will hurt actual crap HDR screens and make OEMs sad? No way..
     
  8. ttnuagmada

    ttnuagmada Member Guru

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    The entirety of display technologies out there revolve around a light controlled environment. Talking about HDR with the lights on its pointless. Also, those FALD can't really do 20,000:1. Sets like the Q9FN crush the hell out of highlights in low APL scenes if a dark and bright object are in the same zone. FALD is and has always been just a fancy trick, but there are plenty of things that will make it fall flat on its face.

    I mean have you even seen what 1000 nits looks like? you do not want it sitting 2 feet from your face.
     
  9. vazup

    vazup Master Guru

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    Tbh in bright daylight its not that bad. But when it starts getting dimmer it can get blinding. But on the other hand I can start to see some light leak in to the black bars and blooming on lcd's when it gets darker. I guess its all about compromises right now until affordable micro-led starts rolling out.
     
  10. DeskStar

    DeskStar Maha Guru

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    Regardless of your black levels or not.....its only going to be as good as the screen its in to begin with.

    Especially if ones not in a perfectly dark room. Coming from an OLED55C7P (2017) version and its "still" somewhat purplish screen when off it isn't perfect. It is still a big step over previous models.
     

  11. fry178

    fry178 Ancient Guru

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    @ttnuagmada
    not every fald is the same. once your "down" to each led being its own zone, things improve. just look at the Z9D/F from sony.

    @nevcairiel
    so you want movie theater performance without the environment of it. right.
    i have oleds on endcap/wall and in my sony shop and i watch stuff on those (not just demos)
    and im more annoyed by noise and other things around me, but the bright light in the store isnt one of it.

    no one says the whole house has to blackened out like in WW2, couple of thick curtains (come in colors not just black),
    and i can spend money not going to the movies, especially when "you" already have a nice tv, and ppl love the fact that they can watch/pause etc whenever they want

    i sold maybe 30 oleds in the last 10 month, more than 70% do NOT have it in a basement/movie room, most owned a (usually much brighter) LED tv as previous set,
    yet no returns or complaints about brightness. same for any (LG) oleds sold in same time frame.

    even
     
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  12. Razoola

    Razoola Member Guru

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    I'm just gonna have to say it as it is.

    This is all just hype to generate sales on new 2019 models given there is no real movie content that needs HDMI 2.1. It is no good having a black level HDR standard for OLEDs when LG panels are so poor at screen uniformity below 5% (vertical strips, brighter/darker edges etc). Seriously where do they get off? Sure gamers might like HDMI 2.1 but any serious gamer who knows OLED probably knows games bring up the whole burn in situation (ESP when static reds and yellows are on screen for long periods). It _DOES_ and _WILL_ happen with OLED despite what LG would try and have you believe. I have seen it first hand.

    The best OLEDS LG made are now 3 years old... Thats the 6 series, the last OLEDS LG made that supported 3D.

    What does 100X deeper blacks even mean? No light = No light. Ambient light plays a massive role here as well as the viewers eyes, pupils etc. There is nothing the TV can do to fix that except MAKE BLACKS LESS BLACK to bring out shadow detail it brighter lit rooms.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  13. ttnuagmada

    ttnuagmada Member Guru

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    Those sets have plenty of blooming issues. The amount of zones used has diminishing returns due to light leakage. In fact, Sony learned this with the Z9D, which is why the Z9F has far fewer zones (less than 300). The Vizio PQ has one of the best FALD systems out there, and they aren't even using 200 zones to do it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  14. tunejunky

    tunejunky Maha Guru

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    there are a few misconceptions i'd like to take a swing at.

    1) the "Holy Grail" of all display technology from the birth of the CRT (1930's) is a perfect black.
    especially a true black that absorbs ambient light.
    until the OLED screen, plasma was the best (as in per pixel illumination) and the Pioneer Kuro (black in Japanese) was the best plasma ever made (Panasonic close #2 at e.o.l.).

    2) the micro-led array is the best conventional technology to challenge OLED, but it isn't "ready for prime time".

    3) ips can be brilliantly executed...literally. but even with the widest possible led array backlighting can and does lead to other problems (light bleed, poor contrast) as well as the fact it will always "fake its way" compared to true per pixel illumination.
    but for the money it's the best way to bridge technologies and get your money's worth out of a gaming monitor.
     
  15. ttnuagmada

    ttnuagmada Member Guru

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    IPS contrast is so bad that FALD doesn't really even help it all that much. Those Asus/Acer FALD monitors are still putting out a whopping 1500:1 ANSI contrast with the FALD on.
     

  16. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    I've been using a Samsung Q9 TV for 2 months with TV, movies and PC gaming.
    It is so incredibly good I dont wish for anything else.

    HDR gets close to 2000 nits, this looks awesome.
    FALD dimming (ie black level/black crush) works extremely well and has vastly improved since the RTings report that shows only a few stars on the Star Wars intro.
    The same scene shows, as far as I can tell, every single star on my Q9 TV -comparing with a none HDR TV. Hugely better than their report.
    Blacks are really black.
    Lag times are so low I dont even need to use gaming mode.
    1440p runs at 120Hz and looks great too. Good news if you havent got a 2080ti, a 1080ti is way good enough for gaming @ 1440p 120Hz.
    It can interpolate to 120Hz with varying levels of smoothness if you dont like the soap opera effect. I got it looking exactly how I like.
    And there is so little extra lag introduced while using interpolation it is practically free and really does help lower Hz gaming.
    The colour volume throughout the whole brightness range makes colours really pop. OLED cannot match this nor get close to the max nits.

    For TV it has to be one of the best I've seen for Standard Def image quality.
    FHD and UHD look magic.
    And the icing on the cake is using HDR+ mode on TV, none HDR movies and gaming is like using a CRT again!
    Colour and colour detail are brought to life without crushing brighter colours at all, it looks natural.
    Better than my Panasonic Plasma.

    I was waiting for OLED to be reliable for PC use but there is no need any more.
    This TV does everything so well, the only thing I want now is a bigger one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
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  17. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    Did you even *read* the article? If you had done so, you would have realized what that deeper black was relative to.
     

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