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Vermintide 2 DX12 vs DX11

Discussion in 'Games, Gaming & Game-demos' started by Kolt, Mar 19, 2018.

  1. Kolt

    Kolt Maha Guru

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    I'm really curious how Verminitide 2 is running on DX11 vs 12 for you all. For me DX11 offers about 20 or so more FPS and no stutter, while DX12 stutters and seems to have much less FPS. This is with all settings maxed and identical. Interestingly enough, DX11 maxes out my GPU usage while DX12 seems to have it sit to around 80-90%.

    Searching around it seems I should be seeing the opposite, which makes me wonder if there is something going on. Anyone else have similar results with DX12 being a bad choice?

    GTX 1070
    i7 8700k @ 4.9ghz (no throttling going on)
     
  2. Darren Hodgson

    Darren Hodgson Ancient Guru

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    DX12 is a waste of time in about 99.9% of games in my experience; it offers NO visual advantage over DX11 and in most cases runs with lower framerates than DX11. DX12 exists only to sell Windows 10 in my opinion.

    In some games DX12 is unplayable on my GTX 1080 Ti, e.g. Star Wars Battlefront II is a god-awful stutterfest with DX12 at 2560x1440 but on the same settings but at 4K runs buttery smooth under DX11. Go figure! Quantum Break is another game that released on the Windows Store as DX12 only but ran better when it was released on Steam with DX11 only support. I can count the number of games that run better on DX12 than DX11 on the fingers of one hand and still have fingers to spare!

    Not sure why developers support DX12 to be honest unless it's some contractual obligation to Microsoft and Windows 10 or the Store? Stick with DX11, you are not missing out on anything visually and games generally run better anyway.
     
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  3. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, can't comment on the particular game but in general DX12 has been a huge disappointment.

    W10 has been around long enough that things should have started to stabilize but still seems like early days.

    Maybe the whole concept of low-level API for general use, that would need GPU or vendor specific implementation to be effective, imploded on itself.

    Dunno, not knowledgeable enough about these things.
     
  4. Vibe

    Vibe Master Guru

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    DX 10 was a huge disappointment too. Not sure about OpenGL, no one talks about that anymore.
     

  5. Yxskaft

    Yxskaft Maha Guru

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    signex and Kolt like this.
  6. Kolt

    Kolt Maha Guru

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  7. jbscotchman

    jbscotchman Ancient Guru

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    Right now DX 12 simply hasn't matured at all compared to DX 11. It's probably gonna be a couple years or more before it becomes the standard API. DX 9 was fantastic and still holds up very well even by today's standards. DX 10 was a joke. DX 11 is great and is what the majority of games use and will continue to use for a while.
     
  8. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    These discussions always pop up from time to time. DX12 was never meant to be a replacement for DX11. DX12 is geared towards developers which have a very high technical proficiency and want to squeeze as much juice as possible out of whatever hardware they are targeting. Low skilled developers should stay away from DX12, or any other low level API for PCs.

    The reason why there are so many performance issues is because the engines are still primarily programmed for DX11. Simply tacking DX12 on is not going to get you the full benefits of DX12. To get the full benefits, developers need to use SM6.0, resource binding tier 3, along with multi-engine etcetera. No game or engine has all of these technologies yet.

    The closest thing we have to a fully transitioned engine is probably Idtech 6.5, which was used in Wolfenstein 2. Even though Wolfenstein 2 utilizes Vulkan and not DX12, it leverages the API very well and gives you a good look at what you can expect when a low level API is utilized properly.
     
  9. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Aaaand year's later we're still here, people wanting to try it out, but dx12 does nothing for the gamer so far. I've yet to read of a single guru here who regularly runs games in dx12. Sorry OP.
     
  10. Kolt

    Kolt Maha Guru

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    I understand, but some of you are missing the point here. I'm not trying to understand why DX12 sucks or why DX11 is better for most games, I'm curious as to why specifically in Vermintide 2 my FPS drops and stutters under DX12, while compared to most people DX12 is supposed to be better. I completely agree that DX12 has been a joke so far, but in Vermintide 2 it is supposed to be a lot better and even most sites I've seen reported that DX12 is supposed to be the go to. This isn't a thread just to bash DX12.. lol.
    Yxskaft kind of pointed out what most likely is the culprit, which to me makes me feel better as to why I have to avoid DX12 in that game other than "DX12 sucks so yeah". In all honesty, I've been having a few odd behaviors on my new PC build and wanted to ensure that this was not something out of the ordinary and something I should look into further.
     

  11. MaCk0y

    MaCk0y Master Guru

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    Anyone want to team up? I am still a beginner.
     
  12. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    dx12 sucks because it's normal to have worse dx12 fps than dx11. So we actually gave you the answer you were looking for :D

    Sorry but @Yxskaft just gave you the answer which is the fundamental thing with dx12: it does nothing for you unless you are CPU limited. So if you got an average CPU with average CPU usage by the game's engine, you don't profit from it too much. Only in scenarios where your CPU will be the bottleneck, it opens up better performance. If you are using your CPU well and don't bottleneck your build with the CPU being on par with what you actually want to do with it, dx12 doesn't offer any help.

    As you were referring to the article of pcgameshardware.de, they are also themselves stating that only with CPU bound scenarios dx12 works (and it does work well in that iteration), but once you go beyond that you're GPU bound anyways, and dx12 offers generally lower fps than dx11 if the GPU is your "bottleneck" there. Also, as it appears, dx12 not yet supports 21:9 ratio, as they stated they did not test those resolutions "in favour of dx12".
     
  13. thatguy91

    thatguy91 Ancient Guru

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    It may be different with DirectX 12 for AMD and Nvidia. DirectX 12 should be better if properly programmed and supported, I doubt that's the case with most games and maybe Nvidia (due to DirectX 12 being derived in part from Mantle).

    OpenGL won't be heard of much from now on due to Vulkan.
     
  14. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    That's not really true man. DX12 does increase GPU efficiency as well, through the use of asynchronous compute, bindless resources and shader model 6. Altogether GPU performance can get an uplift of up to 20% in a best case scenario with all of these combined, though on average it will likely be half that. The problem though is that DX12 is being implemented in piecemeal, meaning that we're not getting the full effects. In fact, most DX12 games are simply DX11 games with a DX12 backend renderer.
     
  15. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Which ultimately means you are not getting anything out of it as it is implemented right now, to be more precise. This is more true to what I wanted to say.

    Aren't we all waiting on the first AAA game to get a proper implementation? I even switched to win10 for it and yet, up to date, EVERY game I played was blessed with inferior perfromance when I compared dx12 to dx11. Yes, probably because it's badly implemented, but that doesn't change anything about the fact that I've yet to see a game where it's actually advised to run on dx12 for every system / hardware. I agree with you that it could do much more, but as it stands now, dx12 is just a joke, and I simply gave up trying with the latest games.
     
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  16. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    If you want great DX12 implementations right now, you have to look at the Microsoft games. Games like Forza Horizon 3, FM 7, Gears of War 4, Halo Wars 2 etcetera all have great DX12 implementations that perform very well. They are still piece meal though. For games that are predominantly DX11 but have a good DX12 back renderer, I would point to The Division, Sniper Elite 4 and Hitman.

    For upcoming games, I don't know if you saw my post in the Metro Exodus thread, but Metro Exodus will apparently be using DX12 as well.
     
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  17. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    Keeping fingers crossed Exodus would be a "real" DX12 game, at least it's been in development long enough for devs to adopt it from the get go. I think.

    Most important to have a polished game though, whatever the renderer.
     
  18. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Sadly I neither fancy the race driving games nor the windows store... so that takes out all of the above, unfortunately. Avoiding the windows store has several reasons that have little to do with the games, I just don't want to buy there and then face technical issues with as with the first launches, where Tomb Raider was better downloaded and played via steam... sorry m$ but I don't follow suit.

    But yeah I too got curious about Metro Exodus, actually I didn't plan to pick it up at launch, then again if it is a true dx12 title I'd just be interested in it.
    The Division I didn't get into because I'm actually sticking to Overwatch for now and didn't want to flash out the money for only occasionally playing and well, it's an ubisoft game... (are there "free weekends"?)
    Sniper Elite 4, tried 3 but I think I did not sneak enough when that dozen of German soldiers always gets me.
    Hitman I avoided because of it's "episodic" format... pay full price up first and wait for the content... didn't really like the idea tbh.
     
  19. Kolt

    Kolt Maha Guru

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    Problem right there is how Microsoft is handling most of their games. I won't touch the Microsoft Store with a 50 foot pole. If they move the game over to Steam and if it is not UWP then I would be interested. I ended up playing Quantum Break only when it got put on Steam.
     
  20. Yxskaft

    Yxskaft Maha Guru

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    The issue with saying Microsoft's games are great examples of DX12 is just that we don't have a DX11 path to compare it to.

    There are other games where DX12 doesn't really perform bad, but we single it out as bad simply because the DX11 path is better.
     

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