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Vehicles of Guru3D thread #2

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by Glidefan, Jun 5, 2011.

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  1. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    I'm referring to companies currently offering/making BRZ turbo kits.

    They are familiar with the layout, and the kits are at least in part derivative works of earlier upgrade kits.

    -scheherazade
     
  2. Mr.Bigtime

    Mr.Bigtime Ancient Guru

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    Hmm. Thanks for the explnation. Also it consumes more fuel i guess.
     
  3. Tom F

    Tom F Ancient Guru

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    Saab 900
    Of course, you could be driving one of these, too.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    I think that depends more on the manufacturer than the style of car they're trying to design. There are quite a few nice fast/exotic cars that go for a rear-engine RWD design. One notable exotic is Lotus. A lot of supercars also seem to shoot for rear-engine rather than mid... such as Bugatti and Pagani.

    As for torque on a FWD car cornering.... i don't think it'd be that much of an issue, considering i've yet to see a mid or rear-engine car with front-wheel drive. haha. Some extra weight to keep it on the road.
     

  5. Copey

    Copey Ancient Guru

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    Thanks for the input, havent met anyone whos drove one so find that an interesting comment.

    Yeah il have to book a test drive and see what i think of them, still would love a charged one though :D
     
  6. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    Examples :

    STI is front engined (engine located in front of front axle).

    Corvette, GTR are mid-front engined (engine behind front axle).
    Pagani, Bugatti, Elise/Exige are mid-rear engined (engine in front of rear axle).

    AFAIK, the 911 is the only modern car that is rear engined (engine located behind the rear axle).



    The final balance is more important than engine location.

    If you have a 50/50 weight split, then that's what matters. Where the engine happened to be, at that point, is not meaningful.

    The elise, for example, is tail heavy. The engine is mid-rear, but not enough up front to balance it out.
    Rearward weight bias is helpful for performance (less centripetal load on front tyres, so you can afford to turn harder before front wheels slip).
    But more centripetal load on the rear means that the rear WILL lose traction first. So you will spin in an instant.

    Example. Just driving down the road, normally. Elise spins going over a simple bump in a turn - while all the other cars just drive along like normal.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgXieZTHqq8

    What happened:
    Higher weight in rear = higher centripetal force in rear
    Hill causes car to "lighten up" and reduces traction all-around.
    Lack of traction causes rear gets pulled 'out' of the turn while the lighter front still sticks.
    Rear goes out, front ends up pointed in, front starts going towards inside rail.
    Driver counter steers, but too late and not enough (You can't count on doing this as a reaction, you need to do it pre-emptively. Hence you need a very good driver).
    Hill ends, traction increases, rear sticks.
    Car stops rotating and scoots where it's pointed : towards the inside rail.

    (Note: This is why the 911 is picked on so much by Clarkson on Top Gear. It's also tail heavy... but more powerful [which is why some people say that it's a car that's out to kill the driver - particularly the RWD variants]. Although, every recent iteration has become less and less tail heavy.
    Sample : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb--Kvn4jEo *Car equivalent of what bike's call tank-slappers/high-sides)


    Very good drivers (eg. Leh Keen) will use rear weight bias to an advantage. But most [good but not professional] drivers will just have to 'chill out' to avoid problems, and it effectively slows them down. (Bad drivers just won't even be aware of it, and will just fly a$$ first into a ditch).
    https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugex...98,d.dmg&fp=9f86d9432a20731a&biw=1484&bih=818


    FWD won't have torque steer issues unless it's got a lot of power going to the wheels AND it has an open differential.

    In any case, all you need to do is go to a race and ride along with some FWD cars and some RWD cars.
    The difference is obvious just listening to the tyres, and watching the driver operate the wheel, etc.

    RWD is simply better suited for going fast. For practical and measurable reasons. Not because I like it.
    Two identical cars. One FWD, one RWD, with appropriate suspension setup for each, and the same skilled driver, the RWD car will lap faster.

    Different cars are different. There are fast FWD cars, and there are slow FWD cars. There are fast RWD cars, and there are slow RWD cars.
    Keep that in mind when comparing different cars. As there's more to it than the drive wheels.

    -scheherazade
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  7. Tom F

    Tom F Ancient Guru

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    Does it really make that much difference in the real world? I'm talking about normal roads, pseudo-legal speeds.

    My ability is a way bigger obstacle to making rapid progress than where the driven wheels on my car are ;)

    Had a go in a 2006 535d a couple of weeks back. Ridiculously fast, epic handling etc., but I imagine someone in my 900 could easily get away from me if I was in the 535d, in spite of the 900 being 'wrong wheel drive' and not as fast.

    Speaking of ridiculously fast, I've changed one of my cars. Had the 9000 to run while I work on the 900, but have lately been thinking that I don't really need two thirsty (but both lovely), turbo Saabs.

    My plan from day 1 has been to only use the 900 for 'fun', and use something else for the daily grind to work, shops etc. The 9000 was a lovely car to run through the winter, but it has essentially the same strengths and weaknesses as the 900 (albeit with less rust and it has an engine in it ;)) - fast, refined, spacious etc. And 25ish mpg around the hilly lanes.

    So, I did what any sensible person would do - sell the lovely refined 9000 and spend some extra money to buy one of...these!

    [​IMG]

    A monstrous 999cc of pure power. I've always always wanted one of these - and it compliments the 900 really nicely. Power is a heady 45hp - did over 200 miles in it yesterday in the snow and it didn't miss a beat. Very happy indeed :D
     
  8. aircool

    aircool Don Aircooleone Staff Member

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    Skinny tyres and no torque make light work of snow :D
     
  9. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    I'm talking about racing, not street driving.

    My only dislike of general street cars, is that they are set up for what I would call 'dangerous levels of understeer'. The kind where if a deer jumps out and you have to swerve, you'll have trouble avoiding the animal - when a simple 'proper' alignment would have been enough to make it an easy task.
    I want to face-palm when I'm driving behind a car, and I see more -camber in the rear than the front.
    All manufacturers are guilty of this, and it affects all (FWD and RWD) their cars.




    That's generally the case for most drivers. Even ones with lots of seat time (They simply have a better idea of exactly how much of an obstacle they themselves are).

    I know I've got a helluva lot to learn, and I generally consider myself a 'pretty good' driver (lol, everyone considers them self a 'pretty good' driver... I basically said nothing in this sentence).

    -scheherazade
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013
  10. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    I didn't take this pic (duh).
    From last autox season.

    [​IMG]

    Been busy working on the house, and am gonna miss the fist part of this season.
    Need new wheels/tyres. Gonna try out the new BFG Rival's, I think.
    They're not out till some time next month anyways.

    -scheherazade
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013

  11. CronoGraal

    CronoGraal Ancient Guru

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    om nom nom @ GTR
     
  12. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    meh. A local car dealership also deals in Lotus's..... seeing a Lotus Evora and a Nissan GTR side-by-side..... I'd rather have an Evora.
     
  13. pokerapar88

    pokerapar88 Ancient Guru

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    U have got to be kidding.

    looks, power (276HP vs 545HP), driveability, tech... all favour the GTR. Even comfort and spacing...

    they only fight on the quality of the interior, which is similar.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    For one, the Evora also has an available Supercharged engine which produces about 345HP. So the GTR would still have a bit more power, but it also has more weight to move around.... about 800 lbs.

    Drivability.... tech..... i'm not sure what kind of "tech" one car could have that would make one more favorable than the other, aside from AWD on the GTR. But let's face it.... it's a street car. You're not going to see people doing a whole lot of off-roading in it.... and you're also just as unlikely to see someone romping through the snow in one. Same with the Evora. Can't really talk about drivability, cause i haven't driven either.

    Spacing, yea, the Evora might be a little bit cramped, but the comfort of the interior makes up for it, and then some. I mean my GOD are those some comfy leather seats! Sure as hell puts the comfort of Maserati's to shame.

    As for looks.... well.... i have to say that i guess we have completely different taste in cars, then.... cause to me the GTR looks dated and, honestly... a bit "riced". Hell... i can't even believe that such a car wouldn't even have a manual transmission as an OPTION. Yea... most Porsche's are sold with automatics.... but they still OFFER a manual for those that want it.
     
  15. Satan

    Satan Ancient Guru

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    AFAIK the GTR does not have the most comfortable of interiors, especially for use in normal day-to-day driving.
     

  16. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    Hella nice car, and honestly, a lot more entertaining to drive/ride-in than the GTR.
    Those pics don't do it justice. It's absolutely impressive in-person. Such a beautiful car.
    And the road feedback... It's a symphony of undulation. I love it.
    I really really really like the Evora.

    Unfortunately, in the U.S., the Evora suffers what all Lotus cars suffer... exchange rate inflated pricing.

    (At the time I was buying the GTR, I was deciding between GTR and SC Exige - and it was NOT an easy decision. I was super torn about it.)

    Anyone interested in a small sporty, decent-fuel-economy car, I HIGHLY recommend test driving any lotus.

    As turn-key, affordable, available at a dealership cars, you won't find any other cars like lotus cars.





    (General 'rice' rant)

    FYI, "Rice" is stickers and useless aero mods on an otherwise slow/stock/beater car. "Rice" does not apply to cars that are actually fast, or cars that are tracked and actually make use of the aero mods.
    Example: Making fun of a giant wing on a track car is face-palm.

    I know folks that DD their track cars. They make use of the mods. There's nothing rice about them.

    P.S.
    Hot, Sexy wing action :
    Oooohhh, so BIG. :D
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    (\General 'rice' rant)



    ... And it's still the most comfortable car I've ever owned ^^.

    IMO, it's a great DD.

    -scheherazade
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2013
  17. pokerapar88

    pokerapar88 Ancient Guru

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    Just in regards to tech, the GTR has so much engineering investigation and so many things controlled by the computer that makes it a very easy to drive car, one that will not fail you in any corner. or so they say !

    nice fun review, ofc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXFSVoVqhYw
     
  18. scheherazade

    scheherazade Ancient Guru

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    Clarkson is way over dramatizing. There's not even remotely close to enough G force to hurt your neck. He's just old.

    Any car with a set of hoosiers will out corner a GTR by a massive margin. And I mean it. Even a friggin' Camry.

    The GTR electronics are far overstated... as is the level of grip.

    The rear wheels are always driven.
    Rear always has torque.

    The rear diff is mechanical - OS Giken style.
    The front diff is mechanical - Also OS Giken style.
    Left/Right torque split is simply mechanical, like in most 'proper' performance cars.

    The transfer case can alter front torque from 0 to 50/50 F/R.
    The transfer case works just like in an EVO or STI, basically a clutch pack that progressively engages '2 more wheels' the more you accelerate.

    The "fancy electronics" amount to traction control - which basically every car made in the last few years has.

    However, with the nannies on low, you can still drift the car, and the nanny light won't come on.

    The best example for how little the electronics do to aide the driver is this :
    A) Set nannies to 'low'
    B) Flog the car.
    C) Turn the nannies 100% off.
    D) Flog the car again.
    E) Feel a difference? Nope? There ya go.

    There are only two cases where I can turn the nanny light on (when the nannies are enabled) :
    1) From a stop, gunning it straight into a turn, on wet ground.
    2) Launching on sand covered pavement.


    Here's the gist of the car :
    It's heavy, and well damped.
    It takes a LOT to upset it.
    Driving 50, or 100, feels the same. It's so friggin' stable that it's absolutely boring under normal circumstances.
    It's very well balanced, and it's just a very docile platform.

    I blame the LCD readouts with all the accelerometer readouts and stats.
    Everyone sees them and goes "OOOoooooohhhhhhHHHHH AAAAAaaaaahhhHHH, fancy numbers. Computer magic."
    And from then on, the line "drives itself" gets repeated ad-nauseum.

    -scheherazade
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  19. ElementalDragon

    ElementalDragon Ancient Guru

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    Yea.... that seems to be what i've seen in other video reviews of the GTR as well. That it's nice to drive, but the "Wow!" factor kinda dies off fairly quickly, especially under normal driving.

    I'd thought about seeing if i could test drive one of the Evora's at that dealership.... but i think i'd be WORRIED about doing so, especially when i was told "be careful" just getting INTO the car, simply because there was some nice expensive leather just past the door sill before the footwells.

    As far as pricing goes.... IIRC, the Evora's i was looking at were still nearly half the price of the GTR.... maybe a little more than half. Still... if i had to pick one if was given one or the other for free.... hands down i think i'd still take an Evora over a GTR.

    All i can say is i'm glad that so far, i've had the opportunity to sit in two of my dream cars. A Lotus (which yes, i basically mean ANY Lotus. Even saw a Lotus Elise a couple years back in my tiny little town of Lehighton... but couldn't dare ask the owner if i could sit in that).... and a Ford GT. THAT... is a beast of a car. Didn't even have to ask to sit in that one. Was asked if i WANTED to sit in it. Told the guy "Nice car" and the next words out of his mouth were "Thanks. Want to sit in it?" Could have been cause I was still dressed in slacks and a dress shirt cause i had just left work... but who knows. My head wanted to say no, but my a** was already moving towards the door.... and its opinion won in that occasion. I will say... i'm surprised that at about 6'1"-6'2".... i didn't lose my head on the roof when i got in and closed the door.
     
  20. IcE

    IcE Don Snow Staff Member

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    The Ford GT is basically a dream car for me. It's so authentic and excellent. The most expensive car I've had the pleasure to sit in though was a 1997 Dodge Viper GTS Coupe (Painted custom pearlescent green). My father's friend owned a series of strip clubs and had money out the wazoo. Quite a car.
     
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