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Utah firing squad executes convicted killer

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by ScaryClown, Jun 18, 2010.

  1. proFits

    proFits Ancient Guru

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    Pretty sure I knew murder was bad around 6-7 y/o.... and how wrong it was as well. Hence why my parents are still alive to this day :)
     
  2. ScaryClown

    ScaryClown Master Guru

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    My older brother was murdered during the war, when i was just a kid.
    I should hate everybody because of it?
    The government who sent him in to a pointless war or the people who killed him?
    He was a soldier,he did his job.
    I have no right to ask for anyone else to die.
    The war ended and we moved on!

    Maybe you should too!
     
  3. nvlddmkm

    nvlddmkm Banned

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    I guess what I meant by reciprocal is that society itself can get to a point where our want of vengeance can turn us into killers. I was going along the "Do 2 wrongs make a right?" way of thought.
     
  4. crushilista

    crushilista Ancient Guru

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    You do think that people who murder should be killed though right? I'm kinda confused on your overall stance.

    I think if we don't kill them, then we should force labor out of them to get benefit.
     

  5. nvlddmkm

    nvlddmkm Banned

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    I think that anyone that kills (criminal, judge, system, etc) is a murderer. I'm not really one to condone killing another human being in any fashion.
     
  6. hunuok

    hunuok Active Member

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    After reading the posts, I concluded one glaring fact:

    Has anyone thought of the victims and their families?

    Some of the posts suggested "What right does the government have to kill another?" when we should be asking "What right does the criminal have to take the life of an INNOCENT person?"

    There have been wrongful convictions in the past due to inefficient technologies, yet the death penalty should be SWIFT if there is OVERWHELMING evidence (including DNA/fingerprint analysis).

    Taxpayers funds should be used to benefit the law abiding in health/education/utilities/infrastructure/tax breaks. NOT to fund accommodation and utilities for convicted felons. Statistically, convicted criminals will probably re-offend anyway.

    Rapists, paedophiles, murderers give up their rights the instant they commit and are convicted of a crime.

    The victims and their families have to deal with the psychological/physical scars for the REST of their lives.

    Where's the justice in that?

    Maybe, just maybe, then society will have more faith in the justice system and in law enforcement.

    My two cents.
     
  7. Dustpuppy

    Dustpuppy Ancient Guru

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    The justice system is to accomplish justice and ensure that revenge does not enter into the equation. However, if you destroy that system, you will find the cycle of revenge is more powerful than petty idealism.
     
  8. ScaryClown

    ScaryClown Master Guru

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    Well im a game playing GP interested in computers ;)
    Dont worry there are tons of us.
    A couple even here.
    :)
     
  9. wootwoot

    wootwoot Master Guru

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    How is that related? War is war. Murder is murder. Totally different.

    Well, that is not how murder is defined, and I don't equate the murder of an innocent person to the carrying out justice against that murderer.

    Do you condone killing another human being in self-defense?
     
  10. nvlddmkm

    nvlddmkm Banned

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    Self defense is one thing and a whole different scenario as it is survival based. If it can be avoided, then by all means. Killing based on revenge or as a "payment" of ones deeds is just the same as what the killer themselves did. I do not subscribe to the mentality of "You killed, now I will kill you" (I, being system or individual). Sure, I'd like to see a few people gone from this world by means of violent actions, but that thought goes away as soon as it comes because I realize that weakness is one that I carry when that/those thought/s occur. For all the injustice I see in life where people do ill towards others, the thoughts of torturing a person to death happens, but again, that is a weakness in understanding and a sub-enlightened attitude.

    Edit: Today at Taco Bell, I was so enraged by some dickwad in front of me that I felt the physical urge almost beyond my ability to contain it, to choke-slam their face into the concrete until they foamed at their mouth. But, my head took over and said, "Hey dude, you are weak right now for thinking that, dumb-ass". So, I walked out of line and went to the drive-through. But that dude had no idea of what could have befallen them at my hands had I acted on urge sans rational thought. Society needs to do the same, how many people have been sent to death based on jury members feeling of wanting to kill someone for what they were sold as injustice by a prosecutor in want of re-election where they were actually innocent? Who is the murderer then?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2010

  11. ShadowMyth

    ShadowMyth Ancient Guru

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    ^ For the most part that is what I was trying to convey with my earlier comments.

     
  12. ScaryClown

    ScaryClown Master Guru

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    Dude,you really have no idea what are you talking about.
     
  13. Sash

    Sash Ancient Guru

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    Wow i am glad people in this thread do not make the laws
     
  14. Solfaur

    Solfaur Ancient Guru

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    +1 :)
     
  15. Skiddywinks

    Skiddywinks Ancient Guru

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  16. Solfaur

    Solfaur Ancient Guru

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    ''Venables and Robert Thompson were 10 when they led two-year-old James Bulger away from a Liverpool shopping centre in 1993 and killed him.

    They were jailed for life but released on licence after eight years in June 2001 under new identities.''

    I don't know much of this case but jailing two 10 year olds for life for killing a 2 year old is extreme. They have no judgement, they are influenced by what they are exposed to (bad parenting, tv etc.) or have a mental illness, hence they should get into a reeducation program or if they are sick in the head to be taken under appropiate medical help.

    Also children are between the most cruel 'creaturres' on this planet if they are not parented good, because they don't know better. I've seen countless of times when kids where torturing animals, torturing pups, kittens, killing them, stabbing them, burning them because their parents do the same. Same thing with killing other kids, so much violence on TV and in general in society that if the mind is fragile to begin with it's just a matter of time until they let themselves go and do horrible things.

    Point is, don't rush on blaming them too quickly, rather blame what is arround them.
     
  17. Skiddywinks

    Skiddywinks Ancient Guru

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    Absolute bull****. I'm sorry, but research what they did to the poor child. He must have been crying for the whole ordeal. Even at 10, you know why people cry. And these two continued to do it. The things they did were horrific, and they even had the intelligence to try and dispose of the body in a way that looked like an accident. Don't for a second expect me to believe that these kids didn't know what they were doing was wrong, even if they may not have had the same mental development as you or I.

    [/quote]Also children are between the most cruel 'creaturres' on this planet if they are not parented good, because they don't know better. I've seen countless of times when kids where torturing animals, torturing pups, kittens, killing them, stabbing them, burning them because their parents do the same. Same thing with killing other kids, so much violence on TV and in general in society that if the mind is fragile to begin with it's just a matter of time until they let themselves go and do horrible things. [/quote]

    I don't see how you can compare animal crulety to what these two did. I can appreciate the point you are trying to make (that we are all products of our environments), but killing other people is definitely not the same as the things people do to animals. Otherwise you would see far more cases like the Bulger case. You are comparing two different occurances with a vastly different number of cases. We have one Bulger case and however many countless cases of animal cruelty such as described. Hell, I only read yesterday in a newspaper about a cat that somehow survived being microwaved and drowned, so trust me, I know all about it. The time around Bonfire night especially makes me feel sick when I see the news or read the paper.

    And as for the environmental issue, don't blame TV or games. All of my friends, both of my brothers, and myself included, were watching films like Predator and other ultra-violent films by the time could even call ourselves teenagers. I saw Predator 2 at age nine. People like to blame entertainment for societies failings, but if you ask me, there is already something wrong with society if moving images can give you the urge to torture and kill.

    [/quote]Point is, don't rush on blaming them too quickly, rather blame what is arround them.[/QUOTE]

    And finally, my favourite point. So what if the blame is their parents etc? I can certainly appreciate, and would even suggest myself that the parenting has gone a long way to developing what we see today, but that doesn't change the fact that they are twisted and dangerous. So what if a serial killer had a bad childhood? Sure, I feel bad for them (as much as you can for someone like that), but it doesn't change the fact they are dangerous to those around them, and should be dealt with, whatever punishment or public service that might entail. At the end of the day, they made a decision. And that decision resulted in Jamie Bulger being tortured, and thrown on to train tracks. I don't care what has happened in their life, they are still the ones that took the actions, not anyone else.

    This incident just further proves that you can't just expect people like this to suddenly switch to "normal". The Bulger case was a sever outlier in the fact that they were so young, and I certainly wouldn't suggest executing them or giving them life in prison sentences at such an age, but clearly there should have been much more scrutiny in how they were dealt with when they came of age.

    Anyone facing life in prison, or death, is going to say they are sorry and can change blah blah blah. Sure, some might mean it. Crime of passion, angry outburst etc. But torturing and killing that child was premeditated, at age 10. You can't consider that fact and then tell me they were not accountable for their actions. Same with serial killers. It's not an outburst or a situation gotten out of hand. It is satisfying urges and desires. There is no chance in hell you can trust these people again. Ever. And the fact Venables, full well knowing how much **** he has been in and still should be in, goes and breaks the law AGAIN in such a horrible way.

    How the **** anyone can tell me to have sympathy for someone like this is beyond ridiculous.
     
  18. Solfaur

    Solfaur Ancient Guru

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    Yes in this particular case the murderer turned out to be quite the sicko even as an adult. I don't blame TV and games, they are just 'igniters' for frail minds like the one we had here. I should be a pshycho serial killer myself if that was true.

    I'm kind of a animlar lover, and for me they are just as much living beeings as we are (frankly I would put them above quite a lot of humans that I encountered in my short life) and it sort of is relevant to this because a lot of the kids who torture and kill animals turn out to torture, rape and kill humans when they grow up if not earlier.

    Anyway, I don't want to enter a flamewar, because I understand your point of view and can't even imagine what the todler went through. I still stand to my opinion though that 10 year olds don't have judgement (or whatever you call it) and in this case he should have been hospitalized (I don't know if he was but I guess so) since he should have shown the simptoms of a mental illness, NOT jailed for life like a adult.
     
  19. Skiddywinks

    Skiddywinks Ancient Guru

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    Trust me, I am definitely an animal lover. We have three dogs, six cats, among all the other animals. And at least as far as the dogs and cats are concerned, they are part of the family, and I do love that quote from Marley and Me*. My main issue with the comparison was the fact that animal cruelty is, unfortunately, extremely widespread. And while you and me might appreciate that anything living deserves respect and humane treatment, far too many people don't, and will do such horrible things to them.

    However, when compared to the numbers of similar cases happening to humans, there is a drastically smaller number. Therefore, it seems likely that while such sickos are quite willing to do horrible things to animals, they seem to falter (or simply do not feel the desire) when it comes to human beings instead. Call it a psychological evolutionary response I guess. Therefore I don't really consider the two related. I certainly wouldn't suggest keeping an eye on someone who treated animals in that way because I was worried they might do the same to a human. Frankly, that kind of behaviour deserves worry in it's own right.

    As for the Bulger killers, IIRC they were not sentenced to life like we know from adults, but went through similar, although I should imagine much less drastic, treatment until the age they could be treated like adults. Then it was decided they should get new identities and be released into the wild. Honestly, I can agree with their treatment as children, but the releasing them seems stupidly dangerous to me. I should imagine what they went through as children basically was hospitalisation. In fact, I'm not entirely sure how much time they spent in a real prison, if any at all.

    Frankly though, I don't think the question of whether they had a true sense of judgement is related to opinion at all. The whole thing was premeditated, and they even had the intelligence to make it look like an accident. They tried to hide the fact they did what they did, so they must have known it was wrong, otherwise they would have probably strolled home and told their parents what they had done. When questioned about the sexual aspects of the case (read the article on wikipedia), they were reluctant to talk. If they really were as naive and innocent as you seem to think, they would have had no reason not to say anything.

    One of the boys was even profiled as being the follower, where as the other was the leader. I don't know which way around it was, but when the police finally started getting answers, the follower was said to be very distraught and upset when confessing. They knew exactly what they were doing. Maybe they couldn't have imagined exactly how horrific what they were doing was, but they knew it was wrong, and they knew they were hurting the boy.

    That said, I also don't want to see a flame war, so if you really can't see how much the boys knew, well, I reserve the right to think you are crazy (and I should imagine in such a case, you would reserve the right to think me heartless!). But I appreciate the civil debating. Far too often do such things turn in to **** slinging contests.

    * for those that haven't seen the film (I read the book as well, but don't remember it being in there):

     

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