Tim Sweeney Outs More Win10 Concerns - MS wants to Break Steam

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Jul 28, 2016.

  1. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    Microsoft created their monopoly through exclusivity contracts. Those contracts were effectively the death of IBM OS/2 and HP NewWave. Those contracts are also what held Linux adoption back. That's not to say that OS/2 or NewWave would still exist or Linux adoption would be higher now without those exclusivity contracts, but the contracts certainly didn't help matters and did in fact create a monopoly for MS in the OEM PC market.

    Windows is the only truly unique operating system. Almost everything else is either based on Unix, BSD or Linux. Outside of Windows, the options are mind-numbing. Not all Linux distros are created equal, which makes choosing one quite difficult. MacOS is the most user-friendly BSD based OS.

    Apple can only copyright and patents the things they do now, because US Patent and Copyright laws were changed. When Apple filed against MS over the GUI, you had to prove the existence of a unique product to receive a patent or copyright for it. Under the current laws, you can simply patent an idea. There is no requirement for the idea to even be unique or for the idea to ever result in a functional product of any type. This is called "Proof of Concept"....which used to be a temporary patent to allow you time to develop and patent the product. Now "Proof of Concept" patents work the same as product patents.

    Technically, Microsoft does still control the PC OS market. But, you're right. Far from being a monopoly now. On OEM products you have a choice of Windows, MacOS, iOS, FireOS, Android, ChromeOS and Ubuntu Touch. That's without getting into custom built PC's and laptops. Obviously I'm taking into account tablets and smartphones, as they are computing devices. Thanks to Amazon, Google and Canonical, Linux is actually the dominant OS kernel, not taking device type into account. Windows has fallen to second place in the global OS market.

    With or without Microsoft, there would be an OS that's dominant on each platform. A market can only sustain but so many competing products. The dominant OS on any platform is going to be the OS that offers the most flexibility. That's part of the reason Android has almost completely dominated the smartphone market. It's the most flexible mobile OS. If Google handles ChromeOS properly in the future, it has the potential to overtake Windows on the PC. Obviously that's not going to happen in the short term, but with the trend going so heavily towards mobile it's possible we could see a shift from Windows to ChromeOS over the next 10 years. It's just a matter of pricing for Chromebooks.
     
  2. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Then what's his point? Unless Win32 is out, there can be no lock in.
     
  3. NAMEk

    NAMEk Master Guru

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    PEOPLE!

    Please stop defending major companies! All of them are huge bastards in one way or another. They are screwing you, me and everyone around them. I guess you feel safer when you refuse to accept bad things. This is called - living in denial. Stop it already. Do a giant research of what world is becoming to. Think critically, ask questions, reason with others and be polite. Stop being naive. Being split isn't going to take us anywhere good. Learn to accept opinions of others and if you want try to prove yourself, do it rationally and politely. Aggressively and blindly stating your opinions is useless. Also insulting others is counter-productive and hurts both sides. No winners - all losers. If no facts are presented at least use common sense, we all need it so much.

    I have no idea who Mr. Tim is, i can't agree or disagree with him. Someone even used to insult his looks to prove or disprove a point. Doing so doesn't work! Useless waste of time. And please people open your eyes. Adding Tinfoil on his head might prove you being very stupid in the future. And we should care about other people opinions. Being blind or ignorant or self centered is spiting us apart even further. And people who stick together always win and it doesn't matter what their plans are - good or bad.
     
  4. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    That they will issue updates that will break functionality in win32 classes related to steam.

    I don't agree with him that they will intentionally -- but they do kind of do it now unintentionally. There has a been a bunch of times in the past where under the hood stuff has changed and broke/caused issues in steam -- for example steam was using Trident as it's backend for browsing for a while and Microsoft kept changing stuff (probably with good intentions for IE) it kept breaking steam functionality on their store and their overlay. They ended up switching to webkit because of it -- which caused a whole bunch of new issues/bugs until they ironed it out.

    Again I don't think Microsoft intentionally broke steam with Trident updates -- but there has definitely been updates to Windows that have caused issues in Steam. And Microsoft definitely had an entire lawsuit where a large portion of it was about how Microsoft intentionally broke functionality on competitor software with updates.

    Will they do it again? I don't know, doubt it -- they got hit hard for the last time. But I don't know why people think it's "tin foil hat". It literally happened.
     

  5. vase

    vase Ancient Guru

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    wisely spoken. :thumbup:

    unfortunately you won't change the people who don't live by this rule.
    and those who understand already live by this rule...

    it's an essential part of ones personality, that can't be reached out to by rationale explanations...

    either you are the insulting type of person who doesn't accept other opinions or reflect them and laugh about others (ridicule them, their speech, their looks)
    or you are the personality type that is looking after compromise as often as possible.

    if you try to convince someone of the first (condescending) type of person to be less insulting and understand others opinions... they will just see this as another attack towards them and get even more defensive...

    but yeah, be glad you're belonging to the more sophisticated group of people.
     
  6. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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    Well said :thumbup:

    Except I don't agree with emotional bastards-screwing-us overtones.
    MS is in the business of making money and growing their company.
    Not in screwing customers business, but if that happens in the process, hey...they're not going to cry their eyes out.

    What Sweeney is saying, most of it are simple facts.

    As for the Steam part, regardless of becoming true or not, there is nothing unreasonable, conspiratorial or sinister in MS aiming to make UWP #1 choice.
    Of course they aim to make it better than Win32 and having nicer toys. Why else have it in the 1st place?
    Of course they want Windows Store to take on Steam. This should not even be debatable.
    So I have no idea what's with all the tin-foils in this thread. In fact MS would be stupid if they WOULDN'T focus on UWP and Microsoft Store.

    And if some app dies or brakes in the process, because it's using old and outdated Win32... hey mister why not using our shiny new and phenomenally supported UWP?
    As far as I can tell the first phase of UWP lockdown has already started with Microsoft's own games(Forza and Gears of War) being as much of a black box as any iOS app.

    Case in point:
    • Where is win32 edition of Forza 6?
    • Can you edit Forza game config files?
    • How about adding injectors, postAA etc? Is it possible yet?
    Nope to all above.
    Everything is deep within WindowsApps folder, and GOOD LUCK reading any of it, let alone changing anything, or adding say SweetFX.
     
  7. GhostXL

    GhostXL Ancient Guru

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    You all keep bashing Tim Sweeny...well most of what I've read, but he has the right to be concerned.

    Microsoft could easily do this with their current structure of Win 10. It's not so far out.

    Now it would not be legal to deliberately break steam, but they could implement ways for it to not "RUN". As he said a change to the structure of the OS moving away from x86/x64 etc.

    They do this steam could be in trouble.....on PC's that is. Valve if they could would have to re-write the code for steam.

    You know make it compatible. I don't agree that it would "slowly" break, but it would take away from sales for sure. I guess if you look at it that way it would be "breaking" steam, just maybe not in the same way he described it.
     
  8. No1True

    No1True Member Guru

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    Exactly.. where is forza 6 for win7? Okay, win 8 then.? Nowhere, its locked in hard in windows10 to emphasise that from now on only windows 10 is sufficient enough. Before that, they were praising windows 8.1 as a best windows version ever..
    ..And before that they were praising that windows 8.0 was far superrior to windows 7.

    As far as Im concerned, all i need is directx12.. or not, if vulkan can deliver such things. Im perfectly fine with windows 7. In fact there is little difference in win7 vs windows XP. I would have stayed with winXP if ms would add new directx over and over. The ui is pretty much perfect, everything is familiar, there are little to no wonky settings like that are in windows 10.

    Each new windows version was a certain lockdown. Little by little!
     
  9. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    Interesting. Basically what you're doing here is denigrating everyone that does not have views exactly like yours and those you agree with. Pretty much what your complaint is.
     
  10. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Is btrfs available for the 2.x Linux kernel? Is the new AMDGPU driver and Vulkan available for the 4.2 kernel? Is Metal available for OSX Lion?

    What do you mean by "lockdown"? Is Counterstrike GO available out of Steam? Is Assassin's Creed available out of Uplay? Microsoft can't do with their own sh*t what ALL other publishers are doing? There WOULD be a lock down if other software COULDN'T run on Windows, but guess what, ALL of it DOES.

    These kinds of comparisons are only done by "edgy" people who usually have no clue about how things actually work. Windows 7 and Windows XP have tremendous differences between them, in all levels. Windows 10 and WDDM 2.0 offers a faster and more efficient graphics susbsystem NO MATTER the API you use.

    And yes, the ${CURRENT_VERSION} is always praised as the best, because, you know, IT USUALLY IS.
     

  11. rockupuncture

    rockupuncture Member

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    It's a bit like the console people. They either love the PS or Xbox and both of them frown on PC, like we are some sort of elitist cancer (which in reality, we just want the best for our PC builds, that we spend time and money on) trying to stir up sh*t.

    The same could be said for us PC people.

    There are people like me who hate windows, not because of what it did for PC but because its been broken since Win 2000. With every successive version becoming less broken. With no real challenge from another OS to keep it competitive... Imagine if we just had Nvidia? It just wouldn't work.
    Now (if true) they want to limit future versions of Windows to benefit them? Then what's the point of Windows? The whole point was to have an OS that was available to all... Now they want to turn it in to a 2K console? No idea the logic behind that other than money...

    But then you have the people who will defend them to the hilt? They are either naive or just worship the ground M$ walks on... If anyone remembers Win 3.1 and Dos 6.2, jesus, the hours of trying to get stuff to work if you made any changes to the Autoexec or config files was something I will never forget. Then I bought my first copy of Win95 (PC World) and oh god, it was total heaven.
     
  12. rockupuncture

    rockupuncture Member

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    I think you need to stop being a fanboy and do some more research yourself...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft

    "Microsoft has acquired several companies and products during its history, including some that competed with earlier Microsoft products.[42] Such acquired assets include DOS (Seattle Computer Products QDOS), FrontPage (Vermeer Technologies Incorporated FrontPage), WebTV (now MSN TV), Hotmail, Direct3D, Internet Explorer (Spyglass, Inc. Mosaic), Visio (Visio Corporation Visio), Windows Virtual PC (Connectix Virtual PC), and Windows Defender (GIANT Company Software, Inc. GIANT AntiSpyware). Microsoft rebrands the primary products of the companies it acquires, and in many cases offers them for free or bundles them with their operating system. Former Sun Microsystems chief executive Scott McNealy occasionally remarked that Microsoft never produced technology except by buying it: "R&D [research and development] and M&A [mergers and acquisitions] are the same thing over there.""

    Notably this section... According to your post, M$ are a good and honorable company... Sorry but you are totally wrong!

    This took me a who 2 minutes to find. And confirms what I read back in the day (which is supsect you where not around, back then) in computer mags and news reports. That competition was halted in the only way M$ knew how!
     
  13. vase

    vase Ancient Guru

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    Tell me more.
     
  14. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    Nah, I'd just be feeding your need.
     
  15. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    You know what is funny, is I had a reply for you that was pointing out what a PITA gaming could be on DOS with needing to configure IRQ manually, free up low DOS memory etc etc. What is curious, is you praise removing much of that ability or need, as the OS progressed. It's pretty much the same evolution now as the OS progresses. More and more gets removed from the control or need for the user to configure, depending upon your point of view. There are positives and negatives depending upon your POV too. Some believe that unless you're 100% against MS, you're some sort of cretin. I'd say the vast majority are in the middle. Personally, I'm going to wait and see what the release version actually does before giving my opinion on the latest changes.
     

  16. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    Seriously, no one is claiming MS has PC gaming's best interests at heart, they never have and never will.

    The truth is that the alternative is much worse.

    I'm not even much into the conspiracy side of things, but these sort of articles start alarm bells that Valve are planning on breaking or neglecting Steam on Windows in the near future as a response to the failure of SteamOS.
     
  17. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    As with any corp, MS has their best interests at heart. If that happens to align with with the consumers interests in some aspects, well that's just coincidental. :)
     
  18. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    That would be a completely suicidal move. A much smarter way to go around is for them to take a smaller percentage for games that have Linux ports. So instead of the usual 30% cut, they get a 25% or even a 20% cut for games that have Linux ports. That would drive their profits down temporarily, but it would give actual incentives for porting to Linux, and it could even be written off in their books as the transition cost to an actually open platform.

    No matter what most people believe, Wintel is NOT an open platform. It is basically controlled by 3 companies: Microsoft, Intel and AMD. We are by default in an oligopoly where Microsoft allows 3rd party drivers. Don't be fooled for a second to believe that the Windows PC either has been, or ever will be "open". The only reason it's not closed yet is momentum because if Microsoft ever closes it down it's game over for them, as the other walled gardens (Google's and Apple's) are offering higher quality and greater variety than they could ever possibly offer at this moment.

    Linux/BSD is the only ACTUALLY open platforms around. NOT Windows. It has NEVER been "open" in the sense that people believe. Microsoft did what Google is doing now, which is getting to as many devices as possible. The only difference is that Microsoft at least had the balls to make their own kernel, while Google has basically abused the Linux kernel (which they use freely without actually contributing to by keeping Android as a fork), while they slowly close the services necessary to operate it. Android is DOA with no Google Play Services, and ALL these are closed source.

    So yeah, there are worse things than Microsoft trying out WinRT.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2016
  19. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, my point was that there are worse people to head PC gaming tham MS, loads of better people as well but beggars.....
     
  20. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    MS is on a very tight balancing act with Windows. If they tighten the leash too much, everyone will flee, if they don't do anything they don't profit at all from the largest desktop/laptop install base on the planet. It must be infuriating to see Apple/Google get their 30% while having basically freeloaders like Valve telling them that they are greedy :p
     

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