The ugly truth about PhysX

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by thecake90, Sep 27, 2009.

  1. deltatux

    deltatux Ancient Guru

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    Maybe, but I think we can all agree both NVIDIA and Intel are blatantly anticompetitive companies. I bet NVIDIA's gonna be EC's next target.

    EDIT: I don't think ppl rly understood what I meant by Intel doing bad stuff to AMD. I'm not talking about gaming here. I'm talking about the microprocessor industry as a whole.

    deltatux
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2009
  2. LinkDrive

    LinkDrive Ancient Guru

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    We're talking about gaming, as PhysX doesn't have any general application other than for gaming. Also, as long as Intel doesn't say "Hey! You're not allowed to support AMD! Here's a large wad of cash to make up for any losses!", which is something the guys at Nvidia might as well be saying at this point, then I don't have any problem with them.
     
  3. deltatux

    deltatux Ancient Guru

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    Ok then, I guess we were talking about two different things then lol.

    I bet that might be something that may be happening. It seems that whenever a game is designed for a system with certain types of hardware it's always Intel and NVIDIA. Never AMD and NVIDIA or Intel and ATi.

    deltatux
     
  4. _Rnesto

    _Rnesto Master Guru

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    that reminds me the "The way it's meant to be played" zhit, I've seen many games with that thing and they perform better on ATI cards. strange doesn't?
     

  5. Stormyandcold

    Stormyandcold Ancient Guru

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    Guess what? All companies are anti-competitive.

    Whether thats through discounts, coupons, buy 1 get 1 free, leaflets, extra stock, bonus point cards, interest, calenders, freebies or cash return towards next purchase.

    How about Ebay occasionally giving certain items free-listing? Right or wrong???

    Theres a fine line between self-promotion and anti-competitive.

    The only reason why companies like Intel are picked on is due to wealth and market dominance. It's certainly not based on logic. Companies like Intel are basically the "cash-cows" of the "law business". That is a fact we have to face cause it's reality.

    Onto Nvidia;

    1. You must answer the question are Nvidia and Ati seperate companies?
    2. Is it right for companies not to share it's technology?
    3. If technology is offered and no help given in return is lock-out allowed?

    Now, I'm pxxxxx-off with the driver situation re: Physx and Ati card myself, but, it's not as if Nvidia didn't offer a hand to Ati to get Physx working on their hardware.

    If someone isn't willing to help you to get software working on "their own hardware", why should they be allowed to run the software?

    Right now, allowing Ati cards to run with Nvidia is a support headache for Nvidia. Better to close that loop off and focus on other areas of software like G300 support. I wouldn't be wasting my time and money, would you?

    Unfortunately, we as consumers are suffering too. This is no different to the battle between Glide and Directx. It's all down to Ati now really to resolve or not. I'm sure if Ati called Nvidia today, Nvidia would answer the call.
     
  6. LinkDrive

    LinkDrive Ancient Guru

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    Stormyandcold, I think you missed the point of this thread. It's not about Nvidia denying PhysX to their customers who prefer to use ATI cards as a primary. It's about Nvidia just falling short of bribing game developers to skip out on CPU utilization of rigid body physics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2009
  7. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    Don't understand the mentality of brand loyality, or even not buying anything from a company with bad practicies.

    Unless Nvidia or Intel or AMD/ATI are experimenting on toddlers, i don't care what they do, business is cutthroat, if one side isn't willing to do what it takes then it shows weakness, and i won't trust that company with my money.

    Some people like to support the underdog whether there is any rationale reason or not, even saw it in consoles, Sony was the poor hard done by company while MS bullied everyone with their power, conveniently forgetting thats how Sony pushed Sega out of business hardware wise.

    As for bribing dev's to implement poor CPU PhysX, is this just this game or every PhysX game?

    Nvidia haven't disabled PhysX on an ATI setup, they have just decided to no longer support it, they have enough problems with drivers without having to deal with any extra bugs brough up from using an ATI card with an Nvidia one.
    It still works with older drivers, if you honestly expect them to support something which was just a bug in early versions of Windows7 then your high or something.

    As for the original post, would like to see if this is possible on Batman:AA, as surely this could also help Nvidia users with i7's get better framerates too, if its not possible with Batman, then its just more anti NV stuff.
     
  8. Stormyandcold

    Stormyandcold Ancient Guru

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    (Intel +vs AMD) VS (Nvidia). Yes, it was business as usual.

    If devs are part of TWIMTBP program, I sincerely hope they implement physx.

    Having seen the cpu physx hack vids, yes, it works, but, not even close, sorry.
     
  9. Corrupt^

    Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

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    Meh, all big corporations do bad things for profit, just deal with it. As long as the product I buy as a costumer works as it should and isn't to overpriced, I couldn't care less.

    And as far as these PhysX go, I prefer nvidia but I couldn't care less about PhysX and I'm just going to sit around and watch until someone with common sense actually realizes that 3 out of 4 games still don't use even 2 of my 4 cores and get's the oh so genius idea of actually using them properly.
     
  10. LinkDrive

    LinkDrive Ancient Guru

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    Which might have something to do with the fact that game devs are skipping out on the utilization of CPU calculated physics. It's already been proven that an i7 is more than capable of it, through both specification and demonstration.
     

  11. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    How many games are developed to fully use a C2D nevermind a i7, this isn't new thing.
    I hasn't been proven via demonstration, that Batman video was from a scene that is particularly easy to do, doesn't affect my framerate, and doesn't look as good as it does on an NV card.

    I'd like to see the same thing with the Scarecrow section.

    Looking at the video, its not even what i though it was, the guy who done this has got the PhysX running at 20% he says, and still needs an i7, im sure using old Nvidia drivers and a cheap 9600GT would provide a much better effect.

    Good idea, but slightly convenient with the facts.

    Surely an option for PhysX low would be a better idea for this game, something similar to Darkest Of Days.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2009
  12. Peerless

    Peerless Maha Guru

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    No I think people are missing the point, if I buy a nvidia card and also buy an ATI card on windows 7 I can run drivers for both so this has nothing to do with nvidia supporting physx on ati cards it has to do with them disabling the ability to run it on your own nvidia card. This is just wrong and should be brought up in court.
     
  13. swing848

    swing848 Active Member

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    The only things I care about in computing is all of my applications working on any Microsoft OS and fast frame rates, with no chop, in games from hardware [and good drivers].
     
  14. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    I think you are missing the point, they aren't disabling it on their own card, they are just removing the feature if a non Nvidia card is detected, this could be to sway someone into getting one powerful Nvidia card rather than a cheapy one to go with their 5870, since their margin is higher on the high end one, or it could be because they have enough to deal with bug reports from Nvidia users without having to deal with ATI ones too, no-one can prove either way.

    Will see if i can get a loan of my mates 4870 to mess about myself, but they could never be taken to court, it would be laughed out, and anyone trying it would end up with lots of legal fee's.

    Its their own technology, no court would expect it to work 100% with a competitors hardware, neither would they expect them to support non authorised hardware setups, and nowhere does Nvidia marketing state that PhysX is possible when used as a second card in a mixed vendor setup.

    Its not unfair its business, and its a very risky strategy that looks more likely to blow up in Nvidia's face than succeed, but guess they are gambling men.

    We will have to see how the sales of Batman:AA, and the other PhysX games due out this year and early 2010 turn out.
     
  15. Peerless

    Peerless Maha Guru

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    That is why I am saying you are missing the point. As you said they are disabeling being able to use your nvidia card for physx with a ATI card, because of competing hardware. Now lets take my comp for example, I run an Intel q6600 which last I checked nvidia and intel don't get along. So that is competing hardware can intel say if we detect an nvida card we will disable our processor from working. It is illegal to say you can use our card for x but not put on the package it will only work with our products and not others, they have not stated that in the eula so that is grounds for a lawsuit. Will I take them to court, hell no because like you said it cost to much! lol
     

  16. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    But there is nothing to prove that the reason they are disabling it is because its a competitors hardware.

    Either way, they would just say they cannot guarantee compatibilty, stability or support due to the unstable nature of using two different video card drivers in the same setup.

    At the very most they would be made to advertise the fact it couldn't be used with an ATI card on all future boxes or marketing, and even that is very unlikely to happen.
     
  17. Iggyblack

    Iggyblack Ancient Guru

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    is it just me or are people making this too big of a deal?

    i mean seriously, if physx mean this much to you switch to nvidia!
    if you don't want to because you don't like their "business practice"
    then stick with your ati cards. as far as i know they never supported it
    in the first place and was only achievable by a bug in windows 7.

    physx does not belong to ATI, and nvidia shouldn't cater to you since your
    main graphics card isn't an nvidia card. why should a company let a technology of theirs
    be used by someone who doesn't support them?

    physx is crap, barely any games support it. stop making a big deal out of something that's not even worth it.
     
  18. Peerless

    Peerless Maha Guru

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    A big deal out of this I will agree but I am just getting annoyed at the fact that people keep overlooking the fact that people have bought the Nvidia card. Which in many cases was one of the top of the line cards when released. My thing is this people keep saying like people have given the finger to Nvidia because they bought another card and I don't see it that way.

    As for switching I am thinking about it because I want to see how the other team is and I will say nvidia is really getting on my nerves overall with their decisions.
     
  19. Iggyblack

    Iggyblack Ancient Guru

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    yes they bought the card, but the second they put an ati card as the main one
    they shouldn't expect nvidia to offer any kind of support especially since they never have.

    like i said, as far as i know it was a bug in windows 7. so what they did was fix the bug. what is so wrong about that?

    seriously, if people care that deeply about physx get an nvidia card. otherwise deal with it.
     
  20. Peerless

    Peerless Maha Guru

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    That is where we just don't see eye to eye, I never heard that it was a bug and the fact that you have a card that can run drivers but they go and put a block on one particular aspect of the card, I don't see as not supporting ATI products. You bought the card, the card works but they block something it could do is plain stupid.

    I do agree physx is a buggy mess but the fact that I was thinking of getting an quadro fx1800 which is a $900 card and using it for 3d work and having it run physx and then going with what ever was the top desktop card at the time shots that down. With that in mind my nvidia card would be the higher priced one.
     

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