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The truth about PRE-RENDERING 0?

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Tastic, Jul 16, 2012.

  1. Prophet

    Prophet Master Guru

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    Flip size que 0 was removed in the drivers years ago, even when setting it with att. The drivers have a min of 1 simply put. Just what nvidia are tryhing to do now.

    Also I, and a few mates of mine that where at the very top of the q3 scene, would say that there are lcds that are just as fast as crts. Mine is 2 ms iirc. The reason you might notice a difference is the same reason its easier to detect difference between 60 and for example 120 hz on a crt than on a lcd. The frames are rendered differently.
     
  2. Prophet

    Prophet Master Guru

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    Funny I guess you are superhuman also then, since you earlier claimed only superhumans could sense a difference. You are just stupid, however much technical knowledge you claim to possess.
     
  3. gx-x

    gx-x Maha Guru

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    that's because you don't know where to look for them. Try game profiles in drivers, but not in control panel ;) Do you really think that when some game gets, say 5% performance increase with new driver it is a miracle? Or re-written code from bottom up? Using some power in GPU that engineers didn't know it's there? hehe...no. :3eyes: it's optimizations embedded into a profile for a game and you cannot see it as an end user, and nV/AMD hopes you wont notice anything strange...Trillinear has nothing to do with this unless they ban anisotropic filtering from a profile and force trilinear instead, but we would notice that :)
     
  4. gx-x

    gx-x Maha Guru

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    you mean displayed differently right? I hope you do... :)

    /offtopic
     

  5. rewt

    rewt Maha Guru

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    No. The optimizations I was referring to are clearly accessible in the control panel.

    Trilinear filtering and anisotropic filtering are not mutually exclusive.

    Besides, my original question was rhetorical (didn't require an answer) and illustrated my point. There is no need to derail the topic any further.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
  6. pekka

    pekka Master Guru

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    i see i really never knew what this was, sometimes i´d set it to 5 and never knew how, it would impact miy gaming so the higher i choose the more it might impact my FPS or the Loewr the setting it also impacts the FPS in some way right?
     
  7. gx-x

    gx-x Maha Guru

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    I was giving you a clue to why some things don't work on some games you tried. If you rename the game exe (and it works after that) to something nV doesn't have a profile for, there is a chance it will work. Not prerender 0 thou, that has been forced to default value.

    and trillinear and aniso are mutualy exclusive since they are two different approaches to texture filtering. Anisotropic filtering over trilinear would render trilinear redundant and vice verse. There are tech articles about it, google it. Besides, it's obvious when you know how they work. If you say no again, I hope it will be with something to back that up ;)
     
  8. rewt

    rewt Maha Guru

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    I have done my best to explain it as clearly and with as few words as possible. Higher values have the potential to increase performance (fps) at the expense of input lag. Let me know if there is still something about this that you don't understand.

    @gx-x
    I assume your post was directed at me (I couldn't read it), you made my ignore list yesterday. PM me when Mr. Hagedoorn invites you to be a member of the Guru3D team of software engineers (as he has already done for me a decade ago) and I'll reconsider.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2012
  9. connta

    connta Banned

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    there are lag input testers out there, all you who claim to see 5-15ms difference in lag, i want you to score under 50 on those and then we can debate if you can trace 5-15ms lag or not...

    average human response is 250ms, not the worst, average! as a seasoned gamer i can do ~180ms, thats in the 1/5 of a second... now all of you come here and tell me that you can notice when there is +-5ms in your input lag? i call bollocks really. on testers my perception of a 180ms try and a 220ms one is the same really, after i get the result i do get the feeling it was faster or slower than average but thats just how our brains work, if i try to guess how i did i almost never do. neither would anyone.

    thats like saying that you can notice the difference between 200 and 195 beans in a jar, or that you can tell me if the temperature in the room is 20 or 19,9C, or if an object weight is 2g or 1,9g... and you cant, no one can. we can test it and play the guessing game and you will be right in a percentage of tries but that doesnt mean you actually knew (noticed) the actual value.

    also all the argument from the superman in this thread are based on "notice" and "feel" which means they are heavily subjective. like pro race car drivers cant feel if their lap was +-2,5% without a stopwatch neither can you without proper grading system which has to have numbers in it, not "feels".

    so until one of us writes a 3d response time measuring program in which we can test things all this is moot. both yours and my opinion.
     
  10. BrightCandle

    BrightCandle Active Member

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    It was only at the weekend that John Carmack was explaining the problems with Sony's VR glasses which introduced a whopping 3 screens of extra latency. He explained that when it came to VR that sort of increase was totally unacceptable and could make you suffer motion sickness. Indeed he had issues with latency and has spent large amounts of time programming to reduce it in his games as much as possible, because he finds a frame noticeable.

    Turns out that while we do have surprisingly slow reaction times our ability to perceive changing images is much faster than our reaction time. People notice a single frame of a flashed image into the few millisecond range, even 120Hz isn't really sufficient. The eye can be tricked into motion reasonably well at 24fps but most gamers would tell you that isn't sufficient. Many are much happier at 60Hz, some want more like 120Hz but even that we know has perceptible limits. What the research actually suggests is its much more complicated than reaction times or basic FPS and to fool us in all circumstances is going to take a lot more speed than we have.

    Reducing the overall latency is Id's goal, they would very much like it to be as near to zero as possible. Some gamers really notice input lag, some are used to it, but we are all suffering its effects whether we realise it or not. The brain is simply compensating quite happily.
     

  11. Tastic

    Tastic Member

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    I feel I have to say that no current LCD can match the responsiveness of a CRT monitor. CRT's have 0ms input lag as there is no conversion before it reaches the screen (I'm sure you're already aware of this). Just can't do it given the current digital technology being employed. I utilize a very high quality ASUS 120hz LCD monitor with 2ms (GTG), and I have compared it to my original CRT back from my Q3 days. There's just no comparison :\.

    I played Q3 competitively at the highest level back in 2000 (c3) and I wish I didn't notice the differences between playing on an LCD from a CRT. The input lag is noticeable to the point where it almost ruins the game for me. Input lag is a huge deal if there's even the slightest of delay, all of which I notice. It's more frustrating than anything else, even after picking up the game again (Quake Live) approximately 10 years later.

    From this forum I started, I did more research and found a specific nvidia driver set (295.75) I believe, and turned off gpu scaling and changed pre-rendered frames to 1. I played with this setting for about a week and tweaked just about everything you can possibly tweak in windows 7 to lower DPC latency. The delay was still 'too' noticeable for what I found acceptable. I decided to switch it to 0 to see if I would notice a difference, and surely enough, I noticed a huge improvement in reduced input lag. Hit detection was far more consistent, and overall movement was more responsive. The reason why I noticed it with absolute certainty this time was because I played with pre-rendered frames @ 1 for about 5-7 days so I had time to adapt to the feel. Changing to 0 at this point had a desirable impact. The majority of the Q3 community will also agree that 0 is the desired setting for the issue discussed here.

    After reading the Nvidia engineer's comment regarding the difference between 0 and 1, only added more confusion to the issue. I could be looking too much into it, sure, but even he said '0 'SHOULD' be the same as 1.' If it were so definitive, I am unsure as to why he suggests it 'SHOULD' be the same, implying that it may not. The lack of definitive responses is a bit concerning :).

    In regards to input lag w/ LCD's, I conclusively found that your BIOS settings add arguably the most input lag to LCD's (Digital connections that require conversion). In your BIOS, HPET (High Precision Event Timer), & Disable CPU Enhanced Halt (C1E), EIST (SpeedStep) & Cool'n'Quiet. These should all be disabled. c3/c6 should also be disabled. Feel free to google for more information, but it can be confirmed by using DPC Latency Checker. These changes had the most significant impact on lowering input lag for me. A bit off subject but I hope it helps those of whom interested in the matter.

    -T
     
  12. kalston

    kalston New Member

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    Actually few LCDs have input lag (or it's like 1-5ms which you'll never notice) when playing at the native resolution. However because LCDs are sample and hold displays they will always feel laggier than CRTs. On a CRT each new frame is drawn on top of a black screen while on a LCD each frame is drawn on top of the OLDER frame resulting in this motion blur that is easily felt. Higher refresh rates reduce the effect but it's still there, you might need 240hz or so before you can start to forget about it. In any case even at 120hz it's indeed still pretty easy to tell the difference with a 120hz CRT.

    Edit: of course there's also the fact that LCDs have pixel response lag, which altogether with the sample & hold effect creates a very different experience compared to CRTs.

    And how did prerender 0 (bad setting as someone explained previously in this thread)affect Q3, an OpenGL game when the setting was Direct3D exclusive until one or two months ago?
    And no, the "majority" of Q3 players does not agree. In fact the very best players don't touch such settings and concentrate on getting a good monitor and a good mouse - which makes a lot more sense.

    DPC latency is in the range of microseconds unless your computer is horribly ****ed up so sorry but it doesn't have its place here. Maybe you can tell a difference between HPET on/off on some systems but NOT because of a few microseconds difference, it would be because Windows is having issues with different conflicting timers or something (not that I experienced that myself but I do believe it can happen). Remember, MICROseconds not milliseconds. That's a lot smaller.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2012
  13. tweakpower

    tweakpower Banned

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    Well, there is no bad setting as anyone want to suggest. It all depends from what your aim is.
    Had that problem with old MOBO, so you are right it can happen. I think the guy pointed at this problem was not aware of it (not aware that have nothing to do with LCD's). And in fact, it is not related to display delay problem.
     
  14. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    Wrong.
    Anisotropic is used together with trilinear or bilinear filtering.

    Now try and disprove me. ;)


    LCD's aren't as fast as a CRT monitor and it has nothing to do with refresh rate.
    LCD screens technically don't have a refresh rate since they don't have an electron gun, instead they have shutters.....
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2012
  15. tweakpower

    tweakpower Banned

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    I think i finally find out from where confusion comes from (for all of us) concerning LCD's and CRT's, read a few things, researched, and it seems that response time (2ms, 5ms, 8ms etc.) have nothing to do with "input lag".

    That is just a time of color refresh of the pixels, and general refresh of them, but input lag (that one can notice) is more connected to the way LCD's work, to the matrix maybe, and all processing LCD have to do in order to give you picture on screen. So, one is better than other, and it is not necessary related to response time nor refresh rate it seems.

    It is simple fact that analog is always faster then digital, but digital should be more precise (and in most cases is). CRT's are analog displays, while most of LCD's are digital (at this time), and that from where all confusion comes. Take for example optical connections (for internet), and "choke" of the network and why it happens. While at stop places, signal is converted from analog to digital, and again reverted to analog, you got that lag, and sometimes you are able to see it clearly (watching live sports for example from distant country), and if is not calculated in advance as it should, or if something goes wrong when it is calculated, you get squares, broken picture or/and sound at the moment etc.
     

  16. connta

    connta Banned

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    all of us. thats rich. you can find out that by just visiting wikipedia.

    you are right about one thing, "ms" number does not have much to do with input lag. the "ms" number for lcd monitors that manufacturer provides is neither relevant (as long as it is under 8ms true ISO) nor it is accurate in most monitors. true ISO transitions are black-white-black and that is the real transition time for any lcd display. in any monitor today you will find gray to gray transition number (GTG) which is again misleading and not accurate. same thing the manufacturers are doing with contrast ratio, exploiting the math calculation to make the result come in numbers 1 000 000 : 1 or even more, some actually go to say their panels have "infinite" contrast which may be true when put in a faulty math formula (they divide by 0 and conclude that = infinity) that manufacturers have no problem using. this happens since the average customer will only compare manufacturing specs when making a purchase decision in which infinite > 1 000 000 and thus its better.

    marketing, marketing, marekting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2012
  17. tweakpower

    tweakpower Banned

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    Ye, contrast specified in manual etc. have nothing to do with reality, also the response time. I said all of us, since most people don't bother to search it in detail (including me).
     
  18. rewt

    rewt Maha Guru

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    Right, thanks. Ironic how he uses the word "obvious" when he doesn't even understand it himself..
     
  19. tsunami231

    tsunami231 Ancient Guru

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    and i thought i was stickler for input lag and all that, I have not felt input lag on any of pc builds in over 5+ years.
     
  20. rewt

    rewt Maha Guru

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    I haven't "felt" my hair growing either, but it happens. :p

    Lets try sticking to the "truth" about pre-rendering 0, not feelings or opinions.

    Michael Phelps, the most decorated Olympian ever, won Olympic gold by one hundredth of a second and people were amazed. But that's still twice slower than the latency some people in this thread were complaining about.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012

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