The truth about PRE-RENDERING 0?

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Tastic, Jul 16, 2012.

  1. BuildeR2

    BuildeR2 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,903
    Likes Received:
    150
    GPU:
    MSI 2080 Ti GX Trio
    I'm off to try the Wildlands FRLV2 stuff. We've been playing this game lately and I'm sick of having to choose between tearing or v-sync drops in combat.
     
  2. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

    Messages:
    636
    Likes Received:
    111
    GPU:
    GTX 1060 3GB
    Did the method work for you?
     
  3. BuildeR2

    BuildeR2 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,903
    Likes Received:
    150
    GPU:
    MSI 2080 Ti GX Trio
    Sorry, just now getting to it. We were going to play Wildlands a few days ago but ended up starting into Titan Quest. I'm going to play Wildlands for sure tonight and I'll report back. To be clear, I need to set NPI to 60FPS frame limiter v2, turn RTSS off for Wildlands, use borderless fullscreen instead of fullscreen and turn v-sync off? What driver version are you on and do you have Windows fullscreen optimizations for Wildlands set to default or not?

    EDIT - Okay, we just got done with a ~4 hour session of Wildlands. First off, here are the settings I was using.
    RTSS = Disabled
    NPI = 60FPS frame limit v2
    V-sync = off both in game and NVCP
    Driver = 397.64
    Windows 1803 with default fullscreen optimization
    Borderless fullscreen via game settings
    1080p resolution with all Ultra/maxed settings

    It did NOT have any tearing, which was nice. Frame rates seemed to be just about as good as full screen with my lowest drop being to 41FPS during a huge firefight with almost a dozen burning or exploding vehicles in the rain in a jungle section of the map. Latency felt slightly higher than when I was using fullscreen with tearing, but I got used to it after a while and it seems like a worthy trade off. I did have a few quarter or half second hitches, but I'm pretty sure that just happens in this game no matter what you do. I mean, it's a clean driver install with no shader cache and we were flying around to tons of places all over the huge world map.

    Overall I think I might start using the NPI 60FPS frame limit v2+no v-sync+borderless fullscreen with no tearing setup instead of the RTSS 60FPS frame limit+no v-sync+fullscreen with tearing. Have you tried leaving everything the same and using the RTSS limiter? I think I'll try that next and see what happens. Also, what do you have your max pre rendered frames set to? Mine is it application decide. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  4. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

    Messages:
    636
    Likes Received:
    111
    GPU:
    GTX 1060 3GB
    Yes, nVidia Inspector frame rate limiter V2 to 60 fps, you can use RTSS for monitoring and to see the frame time, but don't use RTSS frame rate limiter, borderless full screen without v-sync in-game. I have Full Screen Optimizations active, driver version is 397.64, my recommendation is that you try to use the same driver as me since some drivers give vastly different results compared to others when it comes to v-sync or borderless full screen. No idea what nVidia QA department is doing sometimes...
     

  5. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    GPU:
    EVGA GTX 980 Ti FTW
    You're not achieving much here. Windowed mode adds 1 frame of lag, and the nvidia limiter adds another one on top of that.
     
    Xtreme512 likes this.
  6. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

    Messages:
    636
    Likes Received:
    111
    GPU:
    GTX 1060 3GB
    But it made the way way smoother with correct frame timings and no screen tear.
     
  7. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

    Messages:
    636
    Likes Received:
    111
    GPU:
    GTX 1060 3GB
    For Wildlands, the general consensus is to keep max pre rendered frames to 1. When you set them to 2 or 3 seem to brake the game frame times and 3D application setting is ok, but is not optimal. I always test the games with 1 or 2, sometimes just setting pre rendered frames to "Use 3D application setting" gives the best results, but depends on the game. However, 1 seems to work the best at any game from what I've seen.

    I haven't tried using the RTSS limiter to see if it helps in anything, it might and will post results!

    I am more than glad to help.
     
  8. Ancymon

    Ancymon Active Member

    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    23
    GPU:
    GTX 1070
    Little ot about GR Wildlands... Wildlands does not support the proper full screen mode? Its not affected by NV CP VSync settings.
     
  9. heroxoot

    heroxoot Master Guru

    Messages:
    442
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    EVGA 1080ti SC2
    Question - Are Prerendered frames the same as the B Frames setting in streaming applications like OBS? I decided to switch to using NVENC over X.264 because the quality is nearly identical for me with similarly matched settings. The main difference is the B frames. The B frames can make it look worse, but I've read they also improve quality. Confusing subject.
     
  10. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    GPU:
    EVGA GTX 980 Ti FTW
    No. There's no relation at all whatsoever.
     

  11. BuildeR2

    BuildeR2 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,903
    Likes Received:
    150
    GPU:
    MSI 2080 Ti GX Trio
    Yeah, sorry about getting off topic. I'm posting the rest of my testing in the Wildlands thread. On topic, I've settled on using max pre rendered frames 1 in Wildlands and it's running really well. My sniping is much more precise, much to my surprise.
     
  12. Smough

    Smough Master Guru

    Messages:
    636
    Likes Received:
    111
    GPU:
    GTX 1060 3GB
    The only settings it responds to are max pre rendered frames and the nVidia frame rate limiter as far as I know, it ignores v-sync changes except for fast sync, as well as most other changes that does not respond to.
     
  13. Ancymon

    Ancymon Active Member

    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    23
    GPU:
    GTX 1070

    Nooo, I was just talking about my post. : )
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
    BuildeR2 likes this.
  14. Finnen

    Finnen Member

    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    GTX 970 4GB
    These posts are extremely informative and helpful. 60Hz gaming became so much more pleasant experience for me. However, I wanted to make sure I understand everything since I also want to use this method for optimizing 30FPS gaming (in some games I can't hold stable 60, so I prefer to get stable 30 instead of fluctuating framerate). What is the best method to minimize the input lag when aiming at 30 FPS?

    If for ~60 FPS cap I should use the below settings...
    My monitor's native refresh rate: 59.932Hz
    RTSS framerate limit: 59.925FPS

    ...then for ~30 FPS cap should I go with these settings?
    Set VSync to "1/2 Refresh rate" in NVIDIA Inspector. 59.932 divided by 2 means the game works in 29.966Hz?
    If so, then RTSS framerate limit would be 29.966 - 0.007 = 29.959FPS?

    Is it even viable to use 1/2 Refresh Rate from NVIDIA Inspector (I feel like it adds a big chunk of input lag)? If so, does it divide the refresh rate as written above? Or should I just leave normal VSync and set the FPS to 30 (or exactly half of refresh rate) in RTSS without aiming at this 0.007? Or maybe I should use CRU to make custom refresh rate with 30Hz and then use -0.007 FPS lock method?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  15. janos666

    janos666 Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,025
    Likes Received:
    168
    GPU:
    MSI RTX3080 10Gb
    I think you should go with exact refresh/2. If anything, the 0.00x adjustment could only make things worse. Although, you probably would not observe any difference at all (0.00x or not).

    A real 30Hz refresh mode might not work (some displays will simply refuse to operate or you might see some flicker or other artifacts on the screen), most displays handle <50Hz input by refreshing more often internally (repeating the exact same frame, numerous times in some cases). That's why there is often a relatively high lower limit on the official FreeSync range. I tried 24Hz with a laptop display once and it looked like I dealt some permanent damage (the image was full of garbage even after power-cycling the entire machine, although it recovered after 10-20 minutes of normal use).
     

  16. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    GPU:
    EVGA GTX 980 Ti FTW
    That is indeed the best method if you don't want microstutter. You get 30Hz vsync in that case.

    1/2 refresh rate vsync gives you 30Hz vsync. This will obviously have more input lag which you need to reduce with RTSS.

    Obviously, 30FPS has in general more input lag than 60Hz. If the game has an in-game limiter, it might work better. However, in this case you might need to not use 1/2 vsync and thus have to live with some microstutter.

    Yes. The monitor runs at 60Hz, but it behaves as if it was running at 30Hz with vsync enabled.

    Up to you. You get more microstutter that way, but it might have a bit less input lag. Why not try both and see what you like more?

    Not recommended. 30Hz has more monitor lag than 60Hz. With 1/2 vsync on 60Hz, you still get 60Hz scanout speed on your monitor, meaning the monitor needs 16.7ms to update all the pixels on the panel. If you use 30Hz, then the monitor needs 33.4ms to update all pixels, which increases input lag.
     
    yasamoka likes this.
  17. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    GPU:
    EVGA GTX 980 Ti FTW
    No. You NEED the -0.01 adjustment to reduce input lag.
     
  18. Finnen

    Finnen Member

    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    GTX 970 4GB
    I did some testing and what RealNC said is absolutely right, thank you. Without "1/2 Refresh Rate" (only normal 60Hz Vsync + 30FPS lock in RTSS) there is, indeed, smaller input lag that way, but there is always some micro stutter, regardless of what kind of precise ~30 FPS limit I set. I was testing that with a controller in few games by panning the camera around me at a constant rate. Sometimes I was able to make the whole "circle" fine, but most of the times there was one or two "angles" at which the game would stutter slightly, even though FPS stayed dead stable. It's very subtle stutter, some people might not even notice it, but it's there.

    However, With "1/2 Refresh rate" Vsync from NVIDIA Inspector, the micro stutter is removed entirely, but obviously, there is higher input lag. But it's super smooth, no micro stuttering at all. Using the -0.01 adjustment indeed helps with reducing input lag, but it still isn't as responsive as without "1/2 Refresh Rate". But without doubt, this is a far better option for visually smoothest 30FPS. Too bad there's such a big input lag compared to normal VSync, even with -0.01 adjustment, but oh well, it's a trade-off. At least now I can play smoothly the most demanding games in which I wouldn't be able to get such a good frame pacing at 60 FPS due to the slight fluctuations.
     
  19. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    GPU:
    EVGA GTX 980 Ti FTW
    If you ever find a g-sync monitor offered at a good deal price, that would basically completely solve the problem. It will be lower input lag than what you would currently get even if you used vsync OFF and a 30FPS cap. And you can cap to anything you want (40FPS, 48FPS, whatever you want it to.)
     
  20. janos666

    janos666 Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,025
    Likes Received:
    168
    GPU:
    MSI RTX3080 10Gb
    I thought capping the frame rate anywhere below the refresh rate will starve the buffer/queue. Just below or way below, it's the same, the trick is always to keep the queue from filling up to full length and a bigger offset is actually better in that regard (but a smaller one is obviously better from other aspects, so you want the minimum effective offset, hence -.00x).

    I guess you mean the extra 0.00x cap is still needed when you force the 1/2-Vsync option with the nVidia driver or force the display mode to 30Hz (that obviously makes sense). But I assumed he plans to keep the display at 60Hz and use the regular V-sync (not the custom 1/2-Vsync).
    Why would you use both the 1/2-Vsync mode from the driver and then the additional RTSS limiter with a small offset rather than simply applying a 30fps cap with RTSS (keeping the regular V-sync on with the officially supported ~60Hz refresh rate mode)?

    BTW, I still prefer FastSync to capped V-sync. And yeah, HDMI 2.1 and VRR compatible OLED can't come soon enough ("shut up LG and take my money" style...). :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018

Share This Page