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The truth about PRE-RENDERING 0?

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Tastic, Jul 16, 2012.

  1. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    Fast sync always resulted in some frame skipping for me. But it doesn't cost to try.

    That option is configurable in the RTSS settings dialog. No need to edit profile files to get to it.
     
  2. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    I see, well these last two posts really show how little I use the in-program settings and just rely on config file editing. :D
     
  3. Smough

    Smough Member Guru

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    It would be actually great if some technician from nVidia or AMD read these extremely useful posts regarding to frame timing. However, looks like game developers are more aware of this rather than GPU manufacturers; or those who write the code for the drivers in this case. If you actually would go to the nVidia support chat and said something like "I am having issues with the frame time on my games, how can I correct them?" you will get a bot-like answer "update to the latest drivers" or "update your PC drivers" as if that had anything to do with it. They are clueless, its like chatting with a trained monkey.

    For something like this to be added to a GPU driver or software, it would take someone who actually cared and that works for these companies or that its familar with frame times, how some games have less issues with this and how some games have lots of issues with this.

    I know three methods, that depending on how game engines work, give you correct frame times:

    Full screen+RivaTuner frame rate limiter.
    Borderless full screen on its own gives great if not perfect frame timing. RTSS can be used to fine tune it. However, borderless full screen can make some games stutter, as I said, depends on how the game is made and how the engine of the game runs.

    Windows 10, since the Creators Update, incorporates something called "Full Screen Optimizations" on each .exe it has. For games, this GREATLY corrects frame times, sometimes, perfect, RTSS level. Not all games seem to recognize them though so you still have to use RTSS or borderless full screen.

    There is a fourth alternative, so far the only game that has greatly benefited from it its Ghost Recon: Wildlands. This alternative is nVidia Inspector Frame Rate Limiter V2. Using this, turning V-sync off on Wildlands, plus borderless full screen has given me a 100% smooth game experience at 60 fps with no tearing whatsoever. Please, do note that this method has only been working for me flawlessly since I updated Windows to the Spring Creators Update (build 1803). When I was using the Creators Update, the games would judder horribly using borderless full screen with no in-game v-sync and using an external fps cap, (RTSS or nVidia FRLV2). So if somebody wants to try what I mention, I think the best is to have the latest version of Windows 10. I have no idea how this would work on Windows 7 or 8, so you would have to try for yourself and see.
     
  4. BuildeR2

    BuildeR2 Ancient Guru

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    I'm off to try the Wildlands FRLV2 stuff. We've been playing this game lately and I'm sick of having to choose between tearing or v-sync drops in combat.
     

  5. Smough

    Smough Member Guru

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    Did the method work for you?
     
  6. BuildeR2

    BuildeR2 Ancient Guru

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    Sorry, just now getting to it. We were going to play Wildlands a few days ago but ended up starting into Titan Quest. I'm going to play Wildlands for sure tonight and I'll report back. To be clear, I need to set NPI to 60FPS frame limiter v2, turn RTSS off for Wildlands, use borderless fullscreen instead of fullscreen and turn v-sync off? What driver version are you on and do you have Windows fullscreen optimizations for Wildlands set to default or not?

    EDIT - Okay, we just got done with a ~4 hour session of Wildlands. First off, here are the settings I was using.
    RTSS = Disabled
    NPI = 60FPS frame limit v2
    V-sync = off both in game and NVCP
    Driver = 397.64
    Windows 1803 with default fullscreen optimization
    Borderless fullscreen via game settings
    1080p resolution with all Ultra/maxed settings

    It did NOT have any tearing, which was nice. Frame rates seemed to be just about as good as full screen with my lowest drop being to 41FPS during a huge firefight with almost a dozen burning or exploding vehicles in the rain in a jungle section of the map. Latency felt slightly higher than when I was using fullscreen with tearing, but I got used to it after a while and it seems like a worthy trade off. I did have a few quarter or half second hitches, but I'm pretty sure that just happens in this game no matter what you do. I mean, it's a clean driver install with no shader cache and we were flying around to tons of places all over the huge world map.

    Overall I think I might start using the NPI 60FPS frame limit v2+no v-sync+borderless fullscreen with no tearing setup instead of the RTSS 60FPS frame limit+no v-sync+fullscreen with tearing. Have you tried leaving everything the same and using the RTSS limiter? I think I'll try that next and see what happens. Also, what do you have your max pre rendered frames set to? Mine is it application decide. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  7. Smough

    Smough Member Guru

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    Yes, nVidia Inspector frame rate limiter V2 to 60 fps, you can use RTSS for monitoring and to see the frame time, but don't use RTSS frame rate limiter, borderless full screen without v-sync in-game. I have Full Screen Optimizations active, driver version is 397.64, my recommendation is that you try to use the same driver as me since some drivers give vastly different results compared to others when it comes to v-sync or borderless full screen. No idea what nVidia QA department is doing sometimes...
     
  8. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    You're not achieving much here. Windowed mode adds 1 frame of lag, and the nvidia limiter adds another one on top of that.
     
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  9. Smough

    Smough Member Guru

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    But it made the way way smoother with correct frame timings and no screen tear.
     
  10. Smough

    Smough Member Guru

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    For Wildlands, the general consensus is to keep max pre rendered frames to 1. When you set them to 2 or 3 seem to brake the game frame times and 3D application setting is ok, but is not optimal. I always test the games with 1 or 2, sometimes just setting pre rendered frames to "Use 3D application setting" gives the best results, but depends on the game. However, 1 seems to work the best at any game from what I've seen.

    I haven't tried using the RTSS limiter to see if it helps in anything, it might and will post results!

    I am more than glad to help.
     

  11. Ancymon

    Ancymon Active Member

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    Little ot about GR Wildlands... Wildlands does not support the proper full screen mode? Its not affected by NV CP VSync settings.
     
  12. heroxoot

    heroxoot Master Guru

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    Question - Are Prerendered frames the same as the B Frames setting in streaming applications like OBS? I decided to switch to using NVENC over X.264 because the quality is nearly identical for me with similarly matched settings. The main difference is the B frames. The B frames can make it look worse, but I've read they also improve quality. Confusing subject.
     
  13. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    No. There's no relation at all whatsoever.
     
  14. BuildeR2

    BuildeR2 Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, sorry about getting off topic. I'm posting the rest of my testing in the Wildlands thread. On topic, I've settled on using max pre rendered frames 1 in Wildlands and it's running really well. My sniping is much more precise, much to my surprise.
     
  15. Smough

    Smough Member Guru

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    The only settings it responds to are max pre rendered frames and the nVidia frame rate limiter as far as I know, it ignores v-sync changes except for fast sync, as well as most other changes that does not respond to.
     

  16. Ancymon

    Ancymon Active Member

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    Nooo, I was just talking about my post. : )
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
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  17. Finnen

    Finnen Member

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    These posts are extremely informative and helpful. 60Hz gaming became so much more pleasant experience for me. However, I wanted to make sure I understand everything since I also want to use this method for optimizing 30FPS gaming (in some games I can't hold stable 60, so I prefer to get stable 30 instead of fluctuating framerate). What is the best method to minimize the input lag when aiming at 30 FPS?

    If for ~60 FPS cap I should use the below settings...
    My monitor's native refresh rate: 59.932Hz
    RTSS framerate limit: 59.925FPS

    ...then for ~30 FPS cap should I go with these settings?
    Set VSync to "1/2 Refresh rate" in NVIDIA Inspector. 59.932 divided by 2 means the game works in 29.966Hz?
    If so, then RTSS framerate limit would be 29.966 - 0.007 = 29.959FPS?

    Is it even viable to use 1/2 Refresh Rate from NVIDIA Inspector (I feel like it adds a big chunk of input lag)? If so, does it divide the refresh rate as written above? Or should I just leave normal VSync and set the FPS to 30 (or exactly half of refresh rate) in RTSS without aiming at this 0.007? Or maybe I should use CRU to make custom refresh rate with 30Hz and then use -0.007 FPS lock method?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  18. janos666

    janos666 Master Guru

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    I think you should go with exact refresh/2. If anything, the 0.00x adjustment could only make things worse. Although, you probably would not observe any difference at all (0.00x or not).

    A real 30Hz refresh mode might not work (some displays will simply refuse to operate or you might see some flicker or other artifacts on the screen), most displays handle <50Hz input by refreshing more often internally (repeating the exact same frame, numerous times in some cases). That's why there is often a relatively high lower limit on the official FreeSync range. I tried 24Hz with a laptop display once and it looked like I dealt some permanent damage (the image was full of garbage even after power-cycling the entire machine, although it recovered after 10-20 minutes of normal use).
     
  19. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    That is indeed the best method if you don't want microstutter. You get 30Hz vsync in that case.

    1/2 refresh rate vsync gives you 30Hz vsync. This will obviously have more input lag which you need to reduce with RTSS.

    Obviously, 30FPS has in general more input lag than 60Hz. If the game has an in-game limiter, it might work better. However, in this case you might need to not use 1/2 vsync and thus have to live with some microstutter.

    Yes. The monitor runs at 60Hz, but it behaves as if it was running at 30Hz with vsync enabled.

    Up to you. You get more microstutter that way, but it might have a bit less input lag. Why not try both and see what you like more?

    Not recommended. 30Hz has more monitor lag than 60Hz. With 1/2 vsync on 60Hz, you still get 60Hz scanout speed on your monitor, meaning the monitor needs 16.7ms to update all the pixels on the panel. If you use 30Hz, then the monitor needs 33.4ms to update all pixels, which increases input lag.
     
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  20. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    No. You NEED the -0.01 adjustment to reduce input lag.
     

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