The truth about PRE-RENDERING 0?

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Tastic, Jul 16, 2012.

  1. RealNC

    RealNC Maha Guru

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    I used it for every game back when I didn't have a g-sync monitor. About 4 months ago I got a g-sync display, so I don't have to do this anymore (except when using ULMB.)

    But yes, I've been using this method for many years now. I can still remember doing this back in 2013, playing Tomb Raider when it came out. It worked very well for all refresh rates. 60.007Hz and 75.007Hz with my old monitor back then, and then with 90.007Hz, 120.007Hz and 144.007Hz with a 144Hz non-gsync monitor.

    I was OCing my 60Hz monitor to 75.007Hz back then. If your monitor can be convinced to do the same, you'd get extremely good results. 75FPS cap on 75.007Hz is very low vsync latency. It's a big difference compared to 60Hz.

    Now with g-sync, I only use this method when playing with ULMB instead of g-sync (since you can't have both at the same time.)


    Yes, that happens. The low-latency vsync method depends on a fast machine. The game needs to render frames fast enough and always hit the frame cap. If it doesn't, some games can behave badly (like a 30FPS lock in some cases.) There's not much you can do about it other than using triple buffer vsync if the game supports it. This will increase input lag though.

    My solution to this back then was to throw more money at the problem :p (Meaning buying a faster GPU.) Then g-sync happened and it became a non-issue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2017
  2. BuildeR2

    BuildeR2 Ancient Guru

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    @RealNC - Thanks for all the info and help. This gives me a lot of things to think about and test. I really appreciate it! :nerd:

    EDIT - A few more questions about things I noticed. Any and every game I use RTSS frame limits with results in ~90-100% CPU1 usage, whereas without it many games have much lower CPU usage on both CPU1 and all other cores. Does this have something to do with the "busy cycle" you talked about before?
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  3. RealNC

    RealNC Maha Guru

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    Since it doesn't impact performance, it has to be. Otherwise, you would see lower average framerates when using RTSS, which doesn't seem to be the case. That means the CPU load is generated during the throttling period at which the game is blocked.
     
  4. BuildeR2

    BuildeR2 Ancient Guru

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    Alright. I guess I'll just roll with it for now. So far the 59.993Hz cap is working fine for all of the games I play except very few. Splinter Cell Blacklist and Shadow of Mordor both have their in game V-sync broken by a cap under 60.000Hz, while all of my UWP/MS store games (Forza Apex, Forza Horizon 3, Gears 4 and RotTR) behave worse with the 59.993Hz cap than with a straight up 60.000Hz cap.

    Those few oddities aside, I had a very enjoyable Divinity play session with my buddy last night at the 59.993Hz cap. All of this is at MPRF 1, by the way. Thanks again.
     

  5. RealNC

    RealNC Maha Guru

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    For games that have weird in-game vsync behavior, disabling in-game vsync and forcing it in the nvidia panel might give better results.
     
  6. GroinShooter

    GroinShooter Member Guru

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    Sadly even that doesn't always fix vsync issues. GR:Wildlands has some strange acting vsync. If enabled ingame, random fps drops occur - disabled, no random drops. Disabling ingame vsync and enabling it through driver still results in no vsync at all. I used to play using borderless mode and a 79fps limit through nvinspector. That way I wouldn't have any random drops but instead had noticeably higher input lag. Since I recently started using RTSS I'm going to test the game with a 79.992 cap. Don't know if it's going to help in this case as vsync apparently isn't going to work and playing with vertical lines on the screen isn't an option. I guess borderless + RTSS cap is still better than borderless + inspector cap.
     
  7. kilyan

    kilyan Master Guru

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    I play that game too and using borderlessgaming software+rtss cap and no vsync ingame, causes no tearing and smooth gameplay
     
  8. GroinShooter

    GroinShooter Member Guru

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    May I ask why you're using Borderless Gaming on a game that supports borderless mode out the box without the usage of additional programs?
     
  9. kilyan

    kilyan Master Guru

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    because Ubisoft features are always worse, and this works flawlessly
     
  10. GroinShooter

    GroinShooter Member Guru

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    Understandable
    But in general if the engine supports borderless mode by default then why would one use an external program to do the same thing? Is there any real benefit in doing so?
     

  11. BuildeR2

    BuildeR2 Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, it is mostly Ubi games where I have issues that even driver V-sync won't help with. I also cannot play with tearing so I'm looking at alternatives.

    I'm also wondering what this does and if it helps versus the ingame borderless option.
     
  12. RealNC

    RealNC Maha Guru

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    G-Sync :p

    It's amazing.
     
  13. BuildeR2

    BuildeR2 Ancient Guru

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    So I've heard. My close friend with an RX 480 has a freesync LG monitor but refuses to use freesync because it is "too complicated" so I have basically zero real life experience with variable sync technology. Also, my computer has always been hooked up to the biggest TV in the house so that everybody can enjoy movies and other stuff on it. The likelihood of getting a G-sync monitor, heck, even a monitor, is next to none for years. G-sync 4k TV in a year or 2 is probably the only way it would happen. Until then, it leaves me with messing with stuff like MPRF, DB & TB V-sync, dynamic resolution, RTSS and all that goodness. :)
     
  14. fasterfourier

    fasterfourier New Member

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    I was looking for some information on this - about AMD having flip queue set to 1 globally - all over the internet. Is this verifiable with an AMD GPU - RadeonMod or checking some registry values?

    I'm asking because I recently switched from a R9 390 to a GTX 1060 and am fiddling with the allowed pre-rendered frames. Unfortunately, while I had the AMD GPU I didn't check at all about the flip queue size.

    However, one recent test/experiment with Witcher 3 made me think about this. By loading the same save game and doing the same things over time, I recorded the CPU utilization graph and followed CPU usage percentage on screen as well:
    • with the R9 390 - I noted down or memorized the areas where the CPU would max out.
    • when using the Nvidia GPU with default pre-rendered (3) I got 100% CPU utilization more often in areas in which I didn't with the AMD one.

    With these observations, I was suspecting that at least for Witcher 3, AMD has limited the number of pre-rendered frames, because otherwise - CPU consumption should be about the same (not with a 30% difference when drawing same kind of frames <same in-game view>).

    Of course, when setting pre-rendered frames to 1 on the Pascal GPU I got similar CPU usage graph in same areas as when I had the AMD R9 390.
    This leads me to conclude that at least for Witcher 3, AMD used lower flip queue size - maybe 1 as you tell - but do you know for sure they have this globally set? Because, if so, I would also like to keep it globally on 1 now, with the Pascal, as I was quite satisfied with the performance and experience before.

    Thanks a lot also for your other tips with frame limiting and using RTSS as a capper with vsync on to get smoother experience. At least in MSI AB frametime graphs I get a straight line when doing this, although latency wise I can't feel if it's better or just the same as without capping with RTSS - only MSI AB shows a different graph - with higher frame-times.

    I think MSI AB still only takes one measurement per 1000ms - the default - with frametimes - so it is only an aproximate value or mean-value - which might be quite diffrent than a per-frame frametime graph.
     
  15. kilyan

    kilyan Master Guru

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    To avoid potential problems with Ubisoft's coded with feet stuff but also in other non Ubisoft games.
    I'm used to the bordeless gaming software in all games now, i woudn't step back ever to use ingame borderless feature,because never had problems using the software, while with in game borderless i had tearing without v-sync.
    So don't care to try if ingame works as it should, as i'm 100% sure the software does its work.
     

  16. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    What the hell is your friend talking about? Too complicated? The AMD driver enables FreeSync by default when it detects a FreeSync display. What's more complicated (and amounts to 4 button presses) is right-clicking the desktop, clicking on AMD Radeon Settings, clicking on the Display tab, then clicking on the AMD FreeSync toggle right below the respective display name.

    All games (except, rarely, a handful with potential issues) then work with FreeSync, regardless of whether VSync is on or off (as that only controls 1) behavior above the FreeSync range and 2) Probably also below the range if there is no LFC and 3) timing compensation when within the range in order to prevent frames that are a bit off in timing from tearing).
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  17. rogue221979

    rogue221979 Master Guru

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    The lag is there. Trying sim racing with Vsync on. Very bad delay in steering.
     
  18. Enclose

    Enclose Member

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    If i play with your method to Cap the FPS in RTSS with
    Limit=119975
    LimitDenominator=1000
    and VSYNC On i still get weird Fps Spikes and not smooth Gameplay.

    How do i do this if i play with a 120HZ Monitor without Gsync and cap the FPS in every game via Inspector to 1/2 Refresh Rate and RTSS to 60FPS?
    Would appreciate an solution until i get a GSYNC Monitor, early next year.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  19. RealNC

    RealNC Maha Guru

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    If you get FPS spikes, then you don't have vsync enabled. With vsync, you can't get more than 120FPS. So double-check if you indeed have vsync on.

    Don't use inspector for the cap. Use inspector to set vsync to "1/2", then use RTSS to cap to your actual refresh rate / 2 - 0.007.
     
  20. Enclose

    Enclose Member

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    I surly had Vsync in the Game ON, the FPS were in the range of 70-100, the gameplay was not smooth in this case, i capped the FPS to "119975" via RTSS Config because my real Refresh Rate is 119.982Hz - 0.07hz. 1/2 Refresh Rate and everything else was off. ONLY Vsync ON and the RTSS Trick were active this try. For me its not good.

    What about the ingame Frame Limiter? Do i have to do something in this case?
    So if i understand you right i have to set the FPS Cap in the RTSS Config with 1/2 Refresh Rate to "Limit=59984", even if i have a 120Hz Screen with the real Refresh Rate of 119.982Hz?

    My graph with this method is the following:
    [​IMG]

    One small FPS Drop with the 60FPS Cap and the Frametimer is going crazy up, which ends in a strong stutter. Any idea how i can prevent this? My PC is strong enough to hold 60FPS+ but i cant explain the Graph correctly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017

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