Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, May 29, 2018.
$27,000 dollars for over 100 digital ships and extra items that go towards the creation of a game or what about the Ethereal Pink War Dog from DOTA 2 that was sold for £38,000 USD or what about the Echoing Fury mace from Diablo 3 that sold for $14,000 USD. All of these items have 1 certain thing in common, you didn't and don't have to buy them to enjoy the game. The difference is the $27,000 helps CIG. The other 2 didn't. My point? You don't have to spend the money but if you've already spent above $1000 and would like to support the game further (of which you'll get a tonne load of digital ships etc) then feel free. (FREE being the important part of that sentence) If your a person has only every purchased just the game package, which is all you should do, or you've spent below the $1000 then you don't even see a lot of there more expensive packages. Basically it boils down to this, FREE choice to buy and support or not. Its good business and I see nothing wrong with it. Could be worse? They could be doing an EA.
The difference? With EA you spend 200$ on a game and get something, with SC you spend over 100 times the ammount. Please help me understand what's the better thing to do. EA makes it's money over many small abuses, SC seems to make much money with few people. The difference is that not everybody is able to even buy such a large package, when EA offers it to everybody. Yes, please help me understand, as I can't see why this is better than EA.
Here's how I see it:
A donation is money you gift to someone to do as they will with it. There is no legal obligation to respond to a donation.
An investment, meanwhile, tends to be paying someone in the hopes that you get a little more than what you paid (such as interest).
I would consider crowdfunding to be a grant, where you're basically paying someone in advance to get something in return, but not necessarily something of equal value. So, the people who donated $1000 probably aren't actually getting their money's worth (whether the game is released or not) but they are expecting something and to my understanding, they are allowed to take legal action if they don't get the agreed upon result.
Not sure about DOTA2 but the Echoing Fury wasn't sold directly by Blizzard to "fund" their game or to make profit from by any means. It was a drop in game and if someone is willing to buy it on a 3rd party website for a billion, I don't care. We're talking about something completely different in this case, I think you'll eventually get to realise.
Or do you think Blizzard would get away with selling a piece of gear from their store for that amount of money?
I've been playing the game for over 3 years and all I had to spend was $60. With EA, if you want the full game you HAVE to spend $200 and even then it still has lots missing. With Star Citizen you spend $60 and get the game with everything obtainable with in the game. We are all giving companies like EA $200 dollars each year so they can give us the same crap in a new wrapper for another $200 a year later and then the same again. At least with Star Citizen I know that once I've spent $60 that's it. If I want to spend more then I can.
My point wasn't who sold it. My point was people have no problem spending that kind of money but its not required to enjoy the game at its fullest.
It's simultaneously more playable and less playable than people make it out to be.
One of the things that annoys me so much about this game is that it seems no one can discuss it without either side becoming so polarized. On one hand you have people that haven't followed the development progress of the game at all, they completely make things up and conclude that the game a giant scam. On the other you have people that have sunk so much money into it that they will defend it until death despite it's obvious flaws.
The truth lies somewhere in the middle. The game's production has issues - it's missed multiple deadlines, the feature creep is a massive problem and the optics of their financial model is terrible. That being said multiple people that love to comment on this game clearly have no fundamental understanding of designing a game, much less the issues involved in designing one that's crowd funded. A couple examples in the last two threads:
The tech demos have been connected in a semi-persistent universe for over a year now. You can spawn up, create a character, summon a number of fully designed/workable ships with different roles, fly to dozens of areas both in space and on planets - most of which are fully detailed with NPCs/trade hubs/multiple shops/working economies/working communications for landing/refueling/etc. You can pvp/pve combat both in space and on the ground. There are quests. You can trade for in game currency. I would hardly call the current experience "alpha tech demos that aren't connected".. it's more like "an alpha game that needs polish and content"
I keep seeing people talk about rewrites both to game systems and the engine itself. For clarification they changed engines one time, from Unreal to CryEngine way back when they started production. The swap from CryEngine to Lumberyard was essentially a name change. It's the same engine, Amazon repackaged and rebranded it. That's it. As for the system changes, this is where the design/crowd funding problem comes in. They started with a $5M or whatever budget - people wanted to see progress so they gave them progress. They did this by manually piecing together items that at some point would need to be redone for scalability. The best example of this is the solar system. The initial system took them weeks to setup the planet distances, lock the planets to correct orientations, setup the varying locations that orbit the planets etc. After the set the initial solar system up, that team went on to spend the next two years creating a tool that allowed them to "spawn" entire solar systems complete with orbital mechanics, parameters for the type of systems, etc. Now they can spawn a completely configurable system in 10 minutes. Networking is the same - they used the original crytek networking code to get the game running so people could play it - now they are completely rewriting it with object container streaming, serialized variables, and occlusion culling in order to achieve the level of performance they need for scalability. No other dev studio has to do this - right from the start of production they setup these systems the way they will be when it's final, SC has to ship modular updates to appease people who backed the game though, this slows development considerably. And this same logic applies to a bunch of other portions of the game, the ship production pipeline, subsumption - the system they use to govern NPC behavior, etc. It all had to be completed then redone for scalability long term. Couple that with periodic polish to the patches themselves and yeah, delays. Delays lead to more backing money and more community requests, which in this case leads to feature creep.. which is definitely a problem.
That's not to mention that they built out an entire production pipeline across multiple studios around the world while building the game. When Ubisoft does this they have a framework already in place - when CIG did it they needed to build that framework, build out the studios, bring them all up to speed, etc. That process alone takes time and money, time and money that other studios already sunk in previous projects.
There are countless other things too - like when they first showed the planet tech, so many people here on Guru3D including names in this very thread posted stuff like "they'll never get this working in the game" and yet it's here now and actually is surprisingly polished/well designed. On the flipside you get people defending it as if there is no problem with the 6+ year development time and countless schedule misses. 3.0 got delayed like two years... like how do you miss schedule something by 35% of the entire project timeline?
So Idk, I'd like to see where the game goes despite the issues because it's clear they are building something ambitious for those that followed/played it. Whether or not it will ever be 'finished' is another story. I'm just kind of just getting sick of all the bullshit around the game though, most of which is just completely made up by people with not only no skin in the game, but no knowledge at all game development especially in regard to this specific game. Also getting tired of the rabid defenders - the game has issues, issues that have to be corrected. $27,000 option is fine but the optics given previous history is obvious going to be glaring to the overall gaming community - I guess it doesn't concern them much.
You're contradicting yourself. One minute you're saying that you'll have to spend $200 for an EA game and still have a lot missing. On the other hand you're also claiming that spending $60 will allow you to enjoy SC to it's fullest. Really? As much as the $27,000 guy?
You'll be able to earn all the ships with in game currency at some point. Now that itself is obviously an issue but I don't see how it's any different than a game like Eve, where ships also cost thousands of real life dollars if you want them immediately.
How long will that take? Just a rough guess? 10,000 hours? More? Also, can you not unlock everything in EA games just by playing the game?
Really. I'm completely positive that I will actually have more fun in the game than those that buy all of the ships. I get to have the fun of actually earning them and learning the game mechanics as they come along. Also, like many I'm a member of a good org which means if I really, really feel the need to fly something like an Idris or Javelin I can not that I actually could of course because those ships will require multiple people to pilot them correctly. Probably one big issue with people not keeping upto date with SC's progress is that they think people with all the ships will have advantages over everyone else. If only. The only advantage they will have is they have all the ships. I will have every other advantage. But that's only my point of view and all I have to go on is 5+ years of supporting the game and keeping up on whats going on oh and being in an org whose members actually range from those that just own a single ship and package to those who have just brought the Legatus Pack.
Isn't the difficulty by design? Have you ever played a game like Eve before? The players don't want people to access all the ships, it's designed to be hard to do - so that you have to form corporations (or whatever they call them in starcitizen) and work with dozens of other players in order to create fleets and man them. It's like saying I can't enjoy real life because I'll never be able to personally afford a plane. The idea is that as a corp you build one of these super expensive capital ships and it's your corps ship. You don't want individual players to own them.
I never said EA was different or the same but on that note I think all games with lootboxes are similar. Yeah they don't offer $27K packages but there are definitely whales in the game spending that much on them.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the feeling I get from this game is the developers didn't have a clear vision right from the get-go. Their idea was to work with however much funding they received. Now that they have their funding, and it exceeded their expectations - they have endless possibility to play with, an indefinite number of features to try implementing etc.
They are building a castle with an endless number of Lego bricks in hand, and they don't know what the final picture looks like.
Once they know what they hope to achieve with their project, we will then have an approximate release date in mind.
Ok, so it's fine to earn everything in SC by playing and having fun while unlocking things and you actually don't feel the need to have everything anyway. But in EA games, you're not fine with doing the same and felt the need to add that even after spending $200 you'll still have things missing, when in fact spending $200 on SC you'll be missing a lot more? I think we're done here.
I have zero issues with unlocking everything in game. You give Eve as example and it's great that people can grind out everything. But now SC gives you an option to skip grind and get everything with cash. Does Eve offer a cash shop where you can buy all the content with real money?
You're not missing anything, the entire game can be completed with the starter ship. In Battlefield I can't even play with my friends because they all bought the expansions and play on servers that rotate through maps I don't have. Past few battlefields have completely segmented the multiplayer base through monetization in that way. I'd argue that's way worse than what SC is doing with ships that you can eventually earn with in game currency.
You can buy PLEX then convert it to ISK in game and buy any ship/character. A corp will have to make the ship, so it differs in that regard but SC already talked about this becoming a thing in the future. But yeah you can buy in game items with real life currency and some of those ships also cost thousands of dollars.
Now, someone will possibly need to correct me about the date but here goes. About 4.5 - 5 years ago when CIG had hit there goal they put out a question to there then backers as to whether or not they should just make the game they originally envisioned or if they should expand it. The majority chose to expand on the original. Since then backers have continually asked CIG to keep adding feature after feature and because a lot of them were really good they have continued to add. Fairly recently (about a year ago) they slowed down to an almost crawl on the feature creep that had started to happen. They've also had to spend the last 5+ years not only building the Lego pieces but the offices and staff require to assemble them. No wonder it seems like its taking forever. From the perspective of someone that's been with the project from almost the beginning I ca safely say that the building Lego pieces are now actually starting to show form and what I can see looks fantastic. How much longer might it take? If I'm realistic I'd say 2 years to Beta.
Yes, its called grey market and loads of Eve players use it.
Ok ok... this is how I see it. The BF example... If I really like the game and spend a lot of time playing it, I don't mind dropping the money on the Season Pass because I get good value out of it. Same with Eve, people who like the game and have played it for thousands of hours drop money on content. My problem with SC is that it's not even out, we don't know what we're getting and to offer a $27,000 package for something we don't know about doesn't rub well with me.
Hey, I've spent hundreds of £££ on BDO because I liked the game and spent over 7000 hours in it. I had good value out of that money. But we don't know what SC will become so I find it absurd that a $27,000 package should even exist.