So this 4:4:4 problem in a nutshell (HDMI)

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Mda400, Mar 13, 2013.

  1. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

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    In my situation, i've bought that DVI-HDMI cable to "trick" my display into thinking its a DVI only connection (no audio) and display 4:4:4 through DVI. But it doesn't do this because the GTX 480 still does what the GTX 285 does (just not over the little S/PDIF cable) and is able to give audio over the DVI ports (thus, making it an HDMI connection again...).

    When I DISABLE the audio on that DVI port, it still thinks its an HDMI connection because even a user manually disables audio output, it still reads the displays EDID, see's audio information in the device and still interprets it as an HDMI connection.

    This is why the only way to get it on my TV's and other's in the same area is to use the EDID override trick and install the driver with the Display's Audio information removed.
     
  2. chuuey

    chuuey Guest

    I'm surprised so many people have this issue, my 660ti outputs 0-255 RGB by default to my Pioneer Kuro via HDMI...
     
  3. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

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    That's not what this is about...

    I figured out FULL RANGE 0-255 RGB easily with my Nvidia GPU, but this is about 4:4:4 chroma subsampling for each tiny pixel in your display.

    Look up Chroma Subsampling on Wikipedia and you will see why not having the full subpixel resolution in each of those 2.1 million pixels for a 1080p TV will cause a blurry mess to text and color. Also sharpness cannot properly calibrated without 4:4:4.

    Again, it has nothing to do with contrast levels, but with how much color information can be presented in each tiny pixel.
     
  4. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    Mda, thanks so much for opening my eyes on this topic, I was aware of much of what is in the Wiki article, but not fully why.

    For those wanting to get 'some' grip on this topic, the page suggested by Mda and the Y'CbCr (gamma corrected digital) and YPbPr (analogue) pages are very good reads!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_Subsampling
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr <-
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YPbPr <- ^the basics of these 2 are essential to understand the first link.

    Other good pages linked from the Chroma page, to try and get your head round it further
    http://lea.hamradio.si/~s51kq/V-BAS.HTM
    http://www.nattress.com/Chroma_Investigation/chromasampling.htm

    Get a coffee and a quiet room before starting :)
    Its a lot more complex than you might hope.

    Some of the complexity is caused by the original video standards being created to work in the Analogue signal domain. They worked with elements of the video signal that the analogue video hardware had control over and the offsets caused by the hardware (like how the phosphor glows, and the shift from b/w TV to colour TV made use of existing standards), which is why the schemes/maths look a bit whacky at first.
    (modern Digital methods are related or directly associated with the older Analogue methods)
    Consider that the eye is more sensitive to brightness/luminance than colour and some colours more than others, so these factors are used to compress the signal (reduce the bandwidth required to transmit the signal), while keeping much of the perceived quality.
     

  5. Supertribble

    Supertribble Master Guru

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    I realise this thread is about having limited RGB 4:2:2 instead of full RGB but I have the exact opposite problem of getting full RGB instead of limited. My display isn't capable of displaying full RGB at all so with Geforce cards I have to choose ycbcr444 but would like limited RGB but there is no option in the Nvidia driver for this. Is there some sort of driver hack to let me choose limited RGB for desktop programs?
     
  6. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

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    All displays are capable of Full RGB. Its what connection you use that make it map correctly to your Display. If you don't have a Black Level setting when using HDMI, then you can either try THIS tool or stick with YCbCr as it is already 16.235 "limited" range and since its 4:4:4, The difference from limited RGB is negligable. but try that tool first.
     
  7. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

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    I apologize for getting mad about what you were trying to say before, but now you understand why its so interesting.

    I hate how I was led to believe Digital is just better and shut out analog after getting all these HDMI-compliant devices. But without researching what each connection means in the consumer world, it doesn't always play nice in the computing industry.

    The fact that HDMI is basically DVI + audio, which therefore should be able to do both 4:4:4 AND audio on any HDMI-enabled device, just frustrates me and likely many other when they look at all of these test images and find out their PC doesn't acknowledge the capabilities of the TV. I see why some consider Analog as still a viable option because it doesn't have so much frustration over getting it to "work" as intended.

    This is why i now understand things like Displayport is "complementing" HDMI because it can probably do what HDMI does for consumer devices, but keeps the functionality of 4:4:4 and audio to computing purposes. This is why you don't see Displayport on HDTV's.

    If only the Computing world and Consumer Device world could make up and co-exist, then HDMI/Displayport could be funneled into one connection. But its about having seperate luxuries meaning more money split between everyone. ITS ALLL ABOUT DA MUNaY!...:banana:

    You must sacrifice people's frustration for profit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  8. chuuey

    chuuey Guest

    Ah i see what you meant with this 4:4:4 thing, well my Kuro has a HDMI setting "Video" and "PC", i changed this to PC and it's 4:4:4 now and the Magenta word has no blur at all, perfect :) Image is really sharp as hell, i'm sitting at about 1 meter away now, and it's like on my monitor o.o
     
  9. Supertribble

    Supertribble Master Guru

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    Yeah my tele doesn't have a black level option anywhere and I've tried that tool in the past and it does precisely nothing at all. I don't even understand why anyone would bother using that or indeed anything other than adding a .001 variance to the refresh rate under custom resolution to solve the issue this thread is about.

    edit

    I've pinned the problem down to the way the driver deals with what it thinks constitutes a TV or PC resolution. If I select my native res the driver says that's a PC resolution and stubbornly outputs full RGB, if I select 720p the driver says that's a TV res and gives me limited RGB provided I have GPU scaling on the display. If I have GPU scaling on the GPU it scales it up to 1360x768 and I'm back to crushed blacks with full RGB. I feel like Nvidia went out of their way to make the way the driver deals with pixel formats as screwed up as possible. Just ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  10. MrBonk

    MrBonk Ancient Guru

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    So annoying that it's so ****ing difficult to get proper 4:4:4 when basically all TVs should be and are capable of it if they have VGA at least.

    God damn TV industry is to blame for this
     

  11. Weesni

    Weesni Master Guru

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    I rushed over that thread and i also use a edited monitor.inf for 1080p60hz 3d on my lg 32lm611s.
    And for the full range rgb i use this reg file

    Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\Class\{4D36E968-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\0000]
    "SetDefaultFullRGBRangeOnHDMI"=dword:00000001

    and do a reboot.
    Magenta is not blurry on testscreen and i have full range blacks and whites, tv set to black level high, pc input etc...
    Maybe already someone said that but this is my way.
     
  12. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

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    People please... This is not about FULL RANGE 0-255 RGB. That is easily solved by the trick above me or with a program that does it for you.

    This is about 4:4:4 Chroma, Where EVERY "sub-pixel" inside the "main" 1920x1080,1920x1200, etc. Pixel that you can barely see gazing at your TV or monitor display, has every pixel enabled for color.

    In 4:2:2 and lower, you see that the red subpixel (out of Red, blue and Green) gets turned off in half the horizontal pixels. This is why the second number after the quotation is 2. 4 full bits per pixel vertical (quotation), 2 full bits per pixel horizontal (qoutation), and the last #2 describes the 2x2 grid the main pixel makes up.

    This equates to 4:2:2.

    Here is an image that examples each method and here:
    [​IMG]

    Please stop posting about full range RGB unless it has to do with the above.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  13. MrBonk

    MrBonk Ancient Guru

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    Yes. People Chroma Subsampling is COMPLETELY different than RGB Range!


    Chroma Subsampling is about compromising Color Resolution at lower than display resolution.(Hence Sub-Sampling instead of Over-Sampling if it were higher than display resolution)
     
  14. maco07

    maco07 Active Member

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    I noted an issue using 4:4:4 on my Samsung D7000 LCD. If I rename HDMI1 to PC-DVI to get 4:4:4, all works ok but I can't achieve 1080p24. It only works on 60Hz. So, I have 2 options: Get smooth video with 4:2:2 issue or get jerky video with 4:4:4.
    Anyone knows a way to get 24Hz and still get 4:4:4?
     
  15. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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  16. maco07

    maco07 Active Member

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    I don't like at all video interpolation. It's like watching a home made video :S
    Destroys the cinema effect.
     
  17. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    Many interpolators are crap, I really like this one.
    Its worth a try.
     
  18. maco07

    maco07 Active Member

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    I tried it some time ago. I didn't liked it too. :)
     
  19. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    See if it works ok converting to 30fps, that should be lumpy enough :p
     
  20. Sajittarius

    Sajittarius Master Guru

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    this makes no sense. You expect an xbox and a pc to output exactly the same image and the TV to look the same?

    You need to calibrate the TV for the xbox since the console has limited controls, and then calibrate your pc to get a good picture off the xbox calibrated tv.

    Also, your tv may just not be as bright as when it was new. This is just a guess but your gamma is also probably too high (which would make the near blacks look grey).
     

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