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Should I Turn On V-Sync With Freesync..?

Discussion in 'Computer Monitor Forum' started by zeebaluch, Oct 23, 2017.

  1. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    Consistency. I do the same basically. Some games I cap to 80, others to 90, others to 100, and so on. Depends on the average FPS of each game. A huge benefit of VRR is that you can cap your FPS to whatever you want.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
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  2. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    I know, I own a G-Sync monitor myself. 144Hz offers a faster scanout regardless of the framerate. However, the intent here doesn't seem to be consistency - it's merely a framerate he finds comfortable in general. It's wasted potential if you ask me - and not all games swing wildly in terms of framerate. Many games can easily keep a constant 142FPS.
     
  3. Rich_Guy

    Rich_Guy Ancient Guru

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    I can play games fine at 80fps, if im playing something like Tombi, with a controller, then i'll cap to 60fps. :)


    :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  4. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    Well, you're on a 1080 Ti. He is on an RX Vega and I'm on a 980 Ti using a 1440p display. 144FPS isn't something we can reach in most modern games.

    What happens is that in many games, you look at one direction and you get 140FPS, you look the other and you get 80... Capping to something like 90 in that case makes things much more consistent. For many people, including me, 90FPS is the "magic number" where you start to actually get that "high FPS" feel (image clarity and smoothness during motion.) It gets even better at higher FPS, but 90 seems to be where the effect starts to appear.

    Yes, if I play something like Doom 4 or another really well optimized game, I cap to something like 120 or 160. But with most modern games, we really have to cap lower in order to avoid glaring jumps in motion quality.
     
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  5. Slinkyminx

    Slinkyminx Member Guru

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    I used to do this, until today :p :D now I cap at 72, using RTSS, with 75hz refresh rate, FreeSync and VSYNC ON.


    NICE! :D

    Scanning the info in this thread helped me find this :D Thank you! I will have a real good read all through when I get time. I know yasamoka really knows his stuff, but OnnA seems to also! So I am just wondering, OnnA says ALWAYS use enhanced sync, what do you think yasamoka? Enhanced sync or normal VSYNC (I have been using normal so far)

    EDIT: Oh it's alright, I think I am doing it right with refresh at 75hz. Freesync on, VSYNC on, RTSS 72 FPS cap
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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  6. Rich_Guy

    Rich_Guy Ancient Guru

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    Got my new Monitor the other day (BenQ EX3501R), and now using FreeSync + Enhanced Sync, with V-Sync still off in game, and runs superb :)
     
  7. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    I'm getting a heart attack for sure ... why are you using Enhanced Sync with a FreeSync monitor ...? Whenever your framerate exceeds your refresh rate, you're going to get stutter unless that framerate is multiple times higher than the refresh rate. Congratulations, you've just wasted FreeSync for games that run at high framerates. This topic has already discussed what the optimal configuration for G-Sync / FreeSync is.
     
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  8. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    Normal V-Sync. Enhanced Sync isn't useful for FreeSync monitors. Its goal is to reduce latency over V-Sync on when FPS >= refresh rate but without allowing tearing (V-Sync off). With G-Sync / FreeSync, capping your framerate at slightly lower than the refresh rate keeps the monitor in the G-sync / FreeSync window and avoids the high latency of regular V-Sync on. With Enhanced Sync, which is essentially just Triple Buffering with a fancy name (like Nvidia's Fast Sync), when FPS > refresh rate, the monitor leaves the variable refresh rate window, and you get slammed with almost equivalent latency to V-Sync on with a regular monitor, which gradually goes down the higher your framerate is. You need a very high framerate to get that latency back to FPS = refresh rate - 3, and whenever your framerate is not an exact multiple of your refresh rate, you're getting stutter. You need FPS 3-5x your refresh rate, or at least twice, and steady, to make Enhanced Sync come close in terms of latency and smoothness. So why even bother.
     
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  9. Slinkyminx

    Slinkyminx Member Guru

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    Epic stuff. Thank you sir
     
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  10. Rich_Guy

    Rich_Guy Ancient Guru

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    According to AMDMatt, FreeSync + Enhanced Sync is best, and ive never seen a stutter, everythings super smooth, as i also cap my frames, so they never exceed my refresh rate. :)
     
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  11. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    We've discussed AMDMatt's suggestions in this thread. You're getting zero benefit From Enhanced Sync if you cap your framerate below your refresh rate as Enhanced Sync only offers benefits with framerates exceeding your refresh rate.
     
  12. Rich_Guy

    Rich_Guy Ancient Guru

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    Well Enhanced works for me, by stopping tearing, as with just FreeSync on, v-sync off in Radeon Settings, and v-sync off in game, i get tearing (which is odd, as i didn't on my 230Z, unless i did, but didn't notice it as smaller screen, and lower res) but with Enhanced on + FreeSync, and v-sync still off in game, and the Radeon Settings, i get zero tearing, and everything runs great, so it works for me, and end of the day, thats all that matters, its what works for you :)
     
  13. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    As we've mentioned countless times already, you should always keep V-Sync on when using G-Sync / FreeSync as it enables frametime compensation when your frames are being output slightly faster than your display can show them.

    Enhanced Sync:
    1) Enables V-Sync (prevents tearing)
    2) Adds a third buffer (allows framerate to exceed refresh rate)

    That's all it does. By capping your framerate, you're disabling the second effect and keeping the first one.

    You're essentially enabling V-Sync..
     
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  14. Rich_Guy

    Rich_Guy Ancient Guru

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    Ahh well, i'll just enable v-sync then, seen as thats all im doing anyway :D
     
  15. Kamil950

    Kamil950 Member

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    https://www.blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101-input-lag-tests-and-settings/14/

    'Nvidia Control Panel V-SYNC vs. In-game V-SYNC

    While NVCP V-SYNC has no input lag reduction over in-game V-SYNC, and when used with G-SYNC + FPS limit, it will never engage, some in-game V-SYNC solutions may introduce their own frame buffer or frame pacing behaviors, enable triple buffer V-SYNC automatically (not optimal for the native double buffer of G-SYNC), or simply not function at all, and, thus, NVCP V-SYNC is the safest bet.

    There are rare occasions, however, where V-SYNC will only function with the in-game option enabled, so if tearing or other anomalous behavior is observed with NVCP V-SYNC (or visa-versa), each solution should be tried until said behavior is resolved.'

    ***

    So - what can happen with FreeSync (+FPS cap) if some in-game V-SYNC solutions may introduce their own frame buffer or frame pacing behaviors, enable triple buffer V-SYNC automatically? Do you have some examples of these games (maybe Fallout 4*, Just Cause 3?)?

    How much better will be G-Sync (+FPS cap) and NVCP V-SYNC in these games with not good in-game V-SYNC?

    What to do if in-game V-SYNC does not function at all with FreeSync? Use borderless fullscreen? What are third-party V-SYNC solutions? Only old RadeonPro and old D3DOverrider?

    Is it worth to pay more for G-Sync monitor than FreeSync [and maybe similar (or not) price for GeForce instead of Radeon]? G-Sync also has variable overdrive so no or less ghosting than FreeSync maybe (I only found that Nixeus EDG 27 has FreeSync and variable overdrive maybe). How much that ghosting is it visible?

    *I read that with Fallout 4 you have to force FreeSync in drivers becuase it is disabled by defual in driver profile for this game (with some update).


    [Sorry for my English etc. :)]
     

  16. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    For the games that are affected, the difference can be night and day. In Fallout 4 for example, if you don't disable in-game vsync (via ini setting), the game is almost unplayable due to severe stutter. With NVCP vsync + gsync, it's butter-smooth.

    However, in most games, it's fine either way. The recommendation to turn off in-game vsync is because when using g-sync, you are actually running the game vsync OFF, and it's just best if the game itself also thinks it is running vsync OFF.

    No idea. However, you really only need to worry about it if you get tearing. If you run freesync + vsync OFF and you don't actually get tearing, then you don't need to do anything.

    Nah, I would say it's not really worth it, as long as you get a decent freesync monitor that does not have freesync ghosting issues and supports the maximum freesync range and with working LFC (Low Framerate Compensation.) All these things are guaranteed with g-sync, while with freesync it's up to you to make sure the monitor you buy provides these things.

    The lack of driver-level vsync with AMD GPUs is regrettable (nvidia has shown it is possible to do it, so why AMD doesn't implement it is anyone's guess), but it's not that important in the end if you can't spare the extra money to go for an nvidia setup.
     
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  17. Kamil950

    Kamil950 Member

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    Are 'Life is Strange' (Season 1) and maybe some other games on Unreal Engine 3 have stutter with Freesync + in-game V-Sync (and RTSS FPS cap of course)? Or are frame-pacing issues with in-game V-Sync only visible without FreeSync?

    https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2052 - 'V-Sync: Driver or Game?'

    How many games (or maybe game engines) have bad in-game V-Sync? Are Unity engine games, Unreal Engine 4, idTech, GameMaker, RPG Maker, Adventure Game Studio, Visionaire Studio, ScummVM, Double Fine games' engines etc. have good or bad in-game V-Sync? Maybe at least most of new Ubisoft and EA games have good V-sync?

    I suppose that it is the difficult question to answer. :) So maybe do you know some games or engines with bad V-Sync (other than Fallout 4)?

    BTW https://steamcommunity.com/app/233610/discussions/3/135507780430796334/ (how to force exclusive fullscreen in some Unity engine games which is maybe necessary to get FreeSync working with them; on the other hand FreeSync should work in borderless but maybe not with Unity engine)

    ***

    If some game has in-game V-Sync with forced tripple buffering - is it give more input lag with FreeSync than only Nvidia V-sync + G-Sync?

    ***

    Another question - if somebody with FreeSync + V-Sync has in some single player game for example 60-70 FPS but with sometimes drops to for example 50, 47, rarely 41 - it is worth to lock to for example 50 or 60 FPS in RTSS instead of maybe 142 FPS (with 144 Hz monitor)?

    [Sorry for my English etc. :)]

    EDIT: You wrote 'If you run freesync + vsync OFF and you don't actually get tearing, then you don't need to do anything' but FreeSync without V-Sync usually or more often has tearing or has not tearing? Can FreeSync alone or with V-sync reduce engine stutter (for example some loading assets, scripts)?
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  18. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    When using VRR (freesync or gsync), the game actually is supposed to run without vsync. Freesync replaces vsync, it does not augment it. This is the reason why it's recommended to disable vsync in-game, just in case the game's vsync setting changes other settings that are not exposed to the user (like triple buffering or frame timing adjustments that assume fixed refresh vsync.)

    The ones I'm aware of: Skyrim, Fallout 4, Witcher 3. There could be others, but since I now always just disable in-game vsync in every new game I play, I don't get to find new ones anymore.

    No idea. It depends on the game. Not all games use the engine in the same exact way. One Unreal Engine game can have an issue, another one can work perfectly fine.

    No one tested, but it just doesn't sound like a good idea to use tripple buffering with freesync or gsync. At best it doesn't do anything useful, at worst it might increase input lag.

    That is up to you. I like to cap my games near their average FPS, because I simply don't like going from 140FPS to 70FPS in the same game. If the average is about 100, I just cap to 100 or 90.

    If you don't really care about the change in motion blur and input lag when going from 140 to 60, then you don't need to cap lower. If it annoys you, then cap somewhere close to the average FPS, I guess. Really up to you. One huge benefit of freesync is that you can cap to whatever FPS you want.

    Why ask? If you see tearing, just enable vsync. It's gonna be different from system to system and from game to game. So just try it yourself.

    No. VRR prevents the monitor from introducing stutter into games. It does not prevent the games themselves from stuttering. If a game is stuttering, freesync or gsync can't do anything about it.
     
  19. bernek

    bernek Maha Guru

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    I honestly didn't read all the posts in this thread but I was curious which is the way to go for me with the lastest drivers 18.9.3 !

    My setup:

    Freesync Monitor 48-75Hz
    Vsync ON (in drivers and in game)

    I get no tearing (maybe slight input lag since games are almost all the time at 75 fps).

    Should I use FRTC or RivaTuner frame rate cap at -2 or -3 FPS ? and leave VSYNC ON. (Sometimes VSYNC from drivers doesn't apply to game that's why I set it in there also ... same with FRTC not all games accept it)

    I'm new to this technology and I don't know what to expect. I know you guys used it for a long time so you can just point me out the correct direction !

    I appreciate any help :)
     
  20. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    Same here -> Ench. ON with FreeSync (for majority of Games also Chill @ 64/65-70 or 70-75 ;))
    Never had problems with my setup DX9/10/11/12/VLK/OGL you name it.
    IMO Ench. Sync is not only good for Higher refresh rates than Monitor have but also THX to this you don't need to FPS Cap to -1 or -2FPS than FreeSync Range.
    It is worth noting that Quality of Monitor also has an Impact what you Get with some Options ON/OFF

    It is Best for everybody to test and see what's best for their setup
    IMO -> This is Best advise i can give -> Think, Play & Look then adjust if needed.

    Pleatora of Options we have nowdayZ.
    My Setup is 29-75Hz FreeSync Range on Vega XTX
    Now Monitor is set to default 70Hz (I will get myself a 32GB/s DP 1.4 cable soon) then i will go for 75Hz 10Bit w/FreeSync CRU will be involved for OC.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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