Shadow of the Tomb raider

Discussion in 'Games, Gaming & Game-demos' started by WhiteLightning, Apr 27, 2018.

  1. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    Cutscene... not representative of actual gameplay...

    Imo her face in actual gameplay looks more realistic (not to mention prettier) in rise of the tomb raider, especially close up

    Rise lara up close

    [​IMG]

    Shadow lara up close

    [​IMG]

    But everything is noticably lower quality up close in shadow...

    Rise ground + objects

    [​IMG]

    Shadow ground + objects

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Rise walls

    [​IMG]

    Shadow walls

    [​IMG]

    Rise tree

    [​IMG]

    Shadow trees

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Rise random NPC

    [​IMG]

    Shadow random NPC

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    I didn't expect this community to have waifu issues...
     
  3. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    Well Lara was a playboy model back when they were into gaming, far as I heard the original author hated it and he eventually left the studio and Eidos over creative differences.

    EDIT: I do like the original concept art personally for being so ridiculously 1990's over the top.

    [​IMG]

    Though that goes for the game itself too using demons, dinosaurs and skater among other encounters.


    EDIT: Though I guess Tomb Raider 2013 also has it's thing going for it.



    HotShots 2 levels of body count. :p
    Nothing new for a modern day video game though, or even a older one. :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  4. LuckyNumber8

    LuckyNumber8 Master Guru

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    12m20s that's gameplay. Just notice selfshadows on lara face and lighting. In "rise" of the tomb raider Lara looks like that but only in cutscenes. I still havent played "Shadow" of the tomb raider, but rise is one of my favorite games from my steam library and I dont remember seeing so detailed Lara character in Rise like in that particular gameplay video from "shadow" of the tomb raider.

    Even on your comparison I prefer how she looks now in "Shadow", her skin is not so plastic (better light scattering settings for sure) and her face and especially eyes more human like. I also like how walls looks on your photos, stone wall is not flat and top of that it's clearly self shadowed. One partucular aspect that really looks better in your "rise" vs "shadow" comparison is textures, that's inlucluding ground textures and tress textures, but on he other hand I think there's more tessellation and POM in "rise", also on the ground I can see more small objects like leaves with self shadows.

    Can you also compare things like
    -volumetric lighting (as I can sew volumetric lighting is everywhere in new tomb raider)
    -the amount of characters on the screen
    -the amount of objects on the screen for example paititi vilage from "shadow "vs geothermal vilage in "shadow"
    -vegetation details and light scattering
     

  5. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    The scene at 12.20 is an interactive cutscene - when you get out into "free roam", she looks nothing like that.

    Wether you prefer her look in shadow or rise is ofc a matter of preference, but i deffo prefer her look in rise.

    But yeah, textures is the most obvious downgrade compared to rise of the tomb raider, with tesselation being the 2nd, which really hurts the visuals when you are close to something, especially at 4k. I find the texture work in shadow of the tomb raider to be very disapointing tbh, and i don't understand why they have aimed for 6gb vram usage as the very highest, when rise of the tomb raider uses alot more - leaves alot to be desired.

    Shadow does use more volumetric lighting, but the lighting in generel looks off at several times, such as here. The lack of tesselation on the ground is also very apparent, and make it look very flat and contributes to the low quality look.

    [​IMG]

    One advantage that shadow does have, is shadowing from all objects with the "screen space contact shadows" setting, giving leafs (as you mentioned) etc shadows, which they didn't have in rise.

    The vegitation is overall a win for shadow, especially in terms of density, though it is helped by the jungle setting... it looks too cartoonish at times though.

    And obviously shadow is bigger in scale, thus has more NPC's overall. But quality over quantity imo.

    I will do some more comparison shots, although it won't be now :p
     
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  6. LuckyNumber8

    LuckyNumber8 Master Guru

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    Thanks for your comparison. Indeed lighting on that particular screenshot looks flat (washed out contrast) but after seeing YT videos in HDR from that game I can tell already lighting should look totally different in the same scene on HDR panel. Rise of the tomb raider was made with SDR in mind (that's why bloom was everywhere, thanks to it lighting and contrast was very strong on SDR screen and it made details pop), but new tomb raider was made with HDR from the start, and SDR presentation is scaled down. I have seen the same thing in AC Odyssey and Origins, without HDR lighting is flat and without contrast, and with HDR lighting and bt2020 colors the same games looks beautiful.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  7. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    No, no and no...

    There is a reason that ALL games are sdr as standard, some with an option to use hdr... non are made to only be viable with hdr, and imo most look worse with hdr, way overblown.

    The issue with the lighting in shadow of the tomb raider is that at certain times of day volumetric lighting isn't used (hence the flat look), and that the lighting doesn't match what is otherwise shown, making colors appear as if they are in a wrong color palate.

    I don't use bloom in any game, especially not rise of the tomb raider, as it is overblown AF.

    I much prefer assassins creed origins in SDR for the same reason as above - colors are way overblown in hdr (yes, i have both a 4k sdr and 4k hdr screen).

    [​IMG]

    Colors are just as they should be with sdr, as color space isn't the issue. Notice that what gives it depth is the volumetric lighting, and the more direct lighting / shadowing of everything.
     
  8. LuckyNumber8

    LuckyNumber8 Master Guru

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    When it comes to "overblown" picture aspect

    [​IMG]


    SDR on the left with max backlight settings, HDR on the right with the same backlight settings. SDR is clearly more overblown, and it's always like that although content creator can deliberately choose to overblown HDR as well if that's what he want.

    HDR
    [​IMG]

    SDR
    [​IMG]


    SDR will always clip details in bright areas above 100nits, so for example sky will be totally white and overblown on SDR because there will be no details there besides white color. The only way to show missing details in SDR is by dimming entire picture, but picture like that will look washed out and dim, so most content creators will just prefer to erase bright details and show bright and flat picture instead of dim picture.

    HDR mimic MUCH more realistic how human eyes see word in real life because it can show bright and detailed picture at the same time (bright and dark details will be not cliped) and I havent seen even one game that would look worse in HDR. Most new AAA games use HDR anyway since Half Life 2 days, but because people didint had HDR screens back then HDR was converted to SDR, so bright details on for example the sky are overblown, and only on true HDR display it's possible to show them without highlights cliping.
    [​IMG]
    Half Life 2 with overblown (detail missing) sky. That's result of HDR to SDR conversion in current games. Rise of the tomb raider also has similar "d"efect, but because picture like that looks more pleasing to human eye (contrast is stronger) on SDR display developers like to overuse that efect. If you prefer gaming in SDR you basically saying you like cliped highlights and black details, not to mention worse colors compared to new BT2020 standard.

    HDTV experts in my country have reviewed HDR implementation in shadow of the tomb raider and they have concluded this game looks just stunning in HDR, and that's because game was made with HDR and BT2020 in mind from the start (very few games are made like that).
    https://hdtvpolska.com/shadow-of-the-tomb-raider-recenzja-xbox-one-x-4k-hdr/
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  9. XenthorX

    XenthorX Ancient Guru

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    Allright, just bought the game!
    Really nice to see 1080 SLI performance. Uploading some 2080-ti footage right now, looks like we're rather 'close' ? Think i've lower framerate still.


     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
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  10. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    Some recent games using (Windows) HDR10 also has a problem with certain overlay software causing the visuals to look completely overexposed or blown out when it comes to the lighting and calibration, no idea if that's the case here. (It is in Odyssey, game is doing something when you use software such as Rivatuner but also others which usually breaks the way HDR looks if enabled, game issue and not the overlay software that is causing that.) though HDR on Windows also has had it's downsides although it seems RS4 and RS5 here is slowly turning it around though then there's all the different hardware and different ways to accomplish HDR in the software too. :)
     
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  11. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    Sigh... an SDR panel is supposed to run at roughly 100 nits, so obviously running it at max brightness / contrast will make it look wrong. If you calibrate an SDR panel to be closest possible to 100% RGB accuracy, then the image will look just right.

    Basically all you're saying is BS, including what you said about rise of the tomb raider - disable bloom, issue gone.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    You're in for a treat then ;)

    Performance is close ish, but yeah, still a gap - i run the game capped at 58 fps for g-sync, but running the game uncapped, it runs in the 70's for me :)

    [​IMG]

    The advantage you have with a single gpu is that you can use temporal anti aliasing, which is honestly really needed for her hair - unlike previous tomb raider games, her hair looks terribly aliased without taa.
     
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  13. XenthorX

    XenthorX Ancient Guru

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    Played 3 hours so far, i've so much fun, got back into the mechanics fairly naturally after so many hours spent on the first two. Loving it
     
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  14. TR2N

    TR2N Master Guru

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    If we are trying to look for a match , I think Rise does this person better than Shadow.
     
  15. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    You were right, that was my issue in that game - really odd bug. But assassins creed origins went from being completely overblown, to being really outwashed. Now it lost this warm tone that makes it look like you are in egypt, and instead has this white outwashed look.

    Tested a few other games. Far cry 5 is still way overblown, hitman looks wrong in the colors with hdr, mass effect andromeda i saw no noticable difference with hdr on / off - star wars battlefront 2 was the only game to see a noticable improvement imo.
     

  16. LuckyNumber8

    LuckyNumber8 Master Guru

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    No, if you lower backlight settings that scene from Mad Max looks still overblown and without detail, it will be just dimmed, but still you will not see sun and clear sky because these all details were cliped because of SDR 100 nits limit. HDR is not working as you think by adding bloom to everything, HDR is restoring details in already overblown SDR picture, but at the same time if content creator want to achieve bright and overblown picture look he can still do it.
    [​IMG]
    This particular picture is just simulation, because otherwise you cant show what HDR is doing on SDR picture. It's exactly as you would want to show how 4K resolution looks like on HD 1080p display, it just cant be done without simulation.

    https://www.viewsonic.com/library/photography/what-is-hdr-hdr-vs.-sdr

    Before posting your next comment and accuse me of posting BS, just read that article in regards HDR because right now you clearly dont know what HDR is all about.

    In SDR you basically cant display high contrast picture without clipping highlight or shadow details (100 nits of data in SDR vs up to 10000 nits of data in HDR!). Becauae of that contrast in SDR games is washed out and lighting looks flat, BUT since half life 2 developers were using HDR to boost that lighting contrast to higher levels. But beacuse back then we were all using SDR screens the end result was overblown picture with missing details (details were cliped in order to be displayed on SDR panel). Now HDR displays are finally here and unlike SDR displays they dont clip bright and shadow details but simply restore it.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    In order to ilustrate that effect HDTV experts made that comparision. HDR simply restore cliped details and increase brightness level (to normal and realistic levels that camera recorded).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Here few rise of the tomb raider screenshots. Notice that cliped highlights. On HDR panel these details are restored (but right now only "rise" on xbox x version support HDR10) without dimming anything. You can also turn off HDR effects (on PC versionat least) and see more details but then skybox and every other bright object will be dimmed.

    [​IMG]
    On SDR display you can still see clouds details but only when sky will be unnaturaly dim.

    [​IMG]
    You have said you prefer SDR games, but who would prefer left picture? It's very accurate simulation of HDR and personaly I dont like cliped highlights and shadow details. HDR is revolution and lighting in games with bright scenery like tomb raider and assassins creed looks 100x times more realistic, is no longer flat and washed out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  17. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    You should consider reading a bit into it youself - HDR doesn't "restore" anything, it retains information that would otherwise have been lost in the lowest and highest ranges using the 16-235 dynamic range (or rec 702), by using the extended 0-255 range (or rec 2020). But it's really a non-problem for games, unlike movies, as you don't want games to be extremely dark, or extremely bright.

    There is no HDR in rise of the tomb raider on pc, just bloom - bloom has nothing to do with HDR, and the game looks far more natural with bloom off.
     
  18. LuckyNumber8

    LuckyNumber8 Master Guru

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    "Restore" or "retain", it doesn't matter whitch word you want to use because both are correct and can be used to explain the end result, and the end result is, on SDR display you cant see many details that are displayed on HDR panel

    [​IMG]

    By saying you prefer SDR games you simply have said you prefer cliped details, because that's how SDR picture looks.

    And what's interesting even current HDR displays are simply not good enough (too dim panels so you end up with cliped highlights details in very obvious way). Especially new panasonic and LG OLED's are not bright enough but at least these TV's use very clever conversion that can display bright details without so obvious clipping, but still you need that 1000 nits panel to see every detail encoded in HDR10 and you need even more nits for displaying 4000 nits and 10000 nits content. I have seen the same game (horizon on PS4P) on entry level 300 nit panel and also on 1000 nits panel. On 300 nit panel shadow details were crushed and highlights as well, on 1000 nits panel I could see these details.

    Rise of the tomb raider is still using HDR no matter if you turn off bloom or not, and you can see it by walking from cave to outside area, because during that time you will see strong light transition and calculation, but without bloom bright objects are toned down. The same sky that looks blownout on my screenshots from that game looks normal on HDR panel. And BTW my rise of the tomb raider screenshots are from xbox x version and right now only this version support HDR10, PC version is missing HDR display mode and I have no idea why "rise" developer dont want to include it on PC version as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  19. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    It does matter, as the words have completely different meanings - look it up.

    HDR is important for movies, as movies are images captured of something of indefinite color range (aka real life), thus a wider color range better portrays it. Games however are rendered, not captured, thus can be rendered in whatever color range you want, and not have any missing detail, provided the game doesn't try to show colors out of the giving color range. The advantage that hdr provides in games is therefore minimal, and is reduced to having higher contrast between the darkest dark and the brightest bright.

    The effect you speak of in rise of the tomb raider is just an exposure control technique that is supposed mimic the light transitioning when moving from indoors to outdoors - again, has nothing to do with actual HDR.
     
  20. LuckyNumber8

    LuckyNumber8 Master Guru

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    I'm not an expert (like game developer) so I dont know understand all technical aspects in games very well, but I always thought exposure control techniqe that you talking about is basically HDR (dynamic lighting adjustment introduced with first HDR games). In motorstorm (first HDR game I have ever played) I have noticed right away HDR lighting, because lighting levels actually changed depending on where I was looking at and I can see the same thing in rise of the tomb raider.

    Sometimes it's hard to tell a difference between HDR and BLOOM, because on SDR display too strong HDR can look exactly like bloom, but the difference is, bloom is simple and intentional overexposure (bright objects are basically glowing), while HDR is calculated and that exposure change depending on many factors (and not to mention you will see all cliped details on HDR panel). To me it looks like HDR levels in rise of the tomb raider is simply toned down to SDR characteristics, and as a result of that lighting is a little bit too dim for certain objects on the sky so they tried to overcompensate that by adding fake bloom exposure, because on SDR screen something like that can look good.

    Below Mad Max screenshots from actual discs, so you cant blame brightness settings on HDTV. UHD screenshot is converted to 1000 nits because otherwise you would not see missing highlights here on SDR screen.

    BD SDR
    [​IMG]

    UHD HDR 1000 nits
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]
    And here both BD SDR and UHD HDR as they look on HDTV. You will not restore missing sun and sky no matter what backlight settings you will use, because details are simply not there, and if you dim backlight settings on the left (BD SDR) picture will look too dim compared to UHD on the right (UHD picture may look too dim on that comparison above but in reality brightness level on that UHD is normal and it's just because SDR picture on the left is overblown UHD looks unnaturally dim). There's basically nothing you can do to get comparable picture, UHD HDR transfer has simply more details. The same thing happens in games, and for examply HDTV site that I'm always reading compared many games with HDR vs SDR and they always say HDR in games is far more important than even 4K resolution, yet you say HDR is not important at all.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This is a camera photos, so in reality everything looks different (especially colors), but even here you can clearly see missing sun in SDR. You say HDR effect in games is minimal, yet I can see huge difference with HDR on, lighting looks totally different, colors also. HDTV experts and Digital Foundry guys also share similar opinion and you are the first person that say he prefer SDR over HDR.

    Becase I have seen many games in HDR I know already how games will look on HDR screen, and I have noticed immediately on your shadow of the tomb raider screenshots that washed out contrast (and as a result of that flat lighting).


    Here's HDR monitor review, at 8m30s specifically they talk about HDR aspect in games so as you can see experts prise HDR effect, and if HDR would look as bad as you say it would be the other way around. What's interesting they even have said neither of these bright objects/elments are "blown out" because of monitor dynamic range while you have said something contrary in one of your previous post you dont like HDR because picture is blown out :p. (BTW- on their particualr video they have used SDR camera so you guys should listen to what they say, but dont look at video because their camera clip details anyway)
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018

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