Samsung’s ISOCELL Bright HM1 is 108Mpixels image sensor

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. Hilbert Hagedoorn

    Hilbert Hagedoorn Don Vito Corleone Staff Member

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  2. cubus

    cubus New Member

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    Niiice, now let's way a year or two for this type of technology to become mainstream.
    On another note, this article is not that "shareable" due to " ' " in the link. Slack does not like that :)
     
  3. tunejunky

    tunejunky Master Guru

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    the future of film making from Seoul.
     
  4. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    Speak for yourself - I would pay to not have a 108MP sensor.
    34MP is all we "need" in the foreseeable future (34MP is enough to cover 8K), and even that entails a lot of sacrifices when talking about phone cameras. Most (if not all?) phone cameras still use a rolling shutter, so I'm sure it's going to be exacerbated at 108MP. If you care about digital zoom, well, it seems the new trend these days is to equip phones with multiple cameras with different zoom lenses.
    Really, anyone who cares that much about 8K video/photo quality ought to be using a professional camera, not a phone.

    12-16MP is the sweet spot for most phones: they have enough pixels to handle 4K while supporting some digital zoom, and they're cheap to manufacture. They're the right balance between getting a high-res image without needing to increase gain/ISO or shutter time too much. Go to 8MP and you'll be sacrificing too much pixel density, but go above 16MP and you're sacrificing too much light.
     

  5. Pilz

    Pilz New Member

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    Using their pixel binning it will produce 12MP images with 2.4micron pixels for better light while also taking higher resolution images in well-lit enviroments.
     
  6. cubus

    cubus New Member

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    I think i need to explain myself.

    The specs are impressive, but this not what i meant. My speculation is that, in time, some of the advances made for this sensor will lead to a new, generation of sensors.
    I am thinking at a better night mode (heck two year ago, it was quite hard to find a good night mode).
    I am thinking, if they managed to cram so much in a single sensor, then, future ones will be small and the bumps on the back of phones will be a story for the past :)
    Also, did not check any demo with the "zoom", but if that looks good, why not.

    Remember when a mid tier phone was not that great (or you had to search really well for a balanced one). Now, mid tier phones are good, some times better than good (even some of the low cost brands). And lets not discuss about the camera on those old mid tier phones (not all, but many many had subpar cameras)

    Later edit:
    - grammar
    - i will never liked the marketing part with, OMG, we have so many MPs, but i like technology advances
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  7. JJayzX

    JJayzX Master Guru

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    The reason that 12-16MP is sweet spot for cell phones is due to actual limitations from physics. The aperture(diameter of lense) is tiny on phones, so the amount of light(resolution) is limited. Everything being done beyond that is really just trying to make the camera more efficient on transferring a photon into a usable signal to create an image.
     
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  8. anthos

    anthos Member Guru

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    I was wondering how far I would have to scroll to find a post about someone whining how 108MPixel sensors are huge and unnecessary and yada yada yada

    Didn't take long apparently.
    Binning, people... the main idea is binning...
     
  9. slyphnier

    slyphnier Master Guru

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    well it wont be long until more photo comparison vids popping out in youtube
    but looking at those already upload vids



    we can see it showing better images (more detail, less grainy in low-light)

    so as long it give actual improvement, why not?
     
  10. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    I have a right to complain if it means I'm paying more for overall worse-quality images while draining my disk space and battery life in the process.

    Mind telling me how 108MP is supposed to be a good thing? Because binning doesn't make sense; the pixel density is the biggest problem, and binning doesn't fix that.
     

  11. Venix

    Venix Maha Guru

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    Am i the onlyone that would love smart phones with out cameras at all ? :p i never looked at camera specs because i never really cared for em !
     
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  12. slyphnier

    slyphnier Master Guru

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    lol complain like someone forcing u to buy it ?
    dont like then just use ur old phone for find lower spec phone ... its not a thing to complain for sure

    as for battery life and storage space... u need to wake up too, its not only the camera that get improvement
    512GB storage in smartphone will become common real soon, 128GB is like the standard nowdays
    same to battery-life... most phone come to bigger mah (4000mah+) beside it should have better power-optimization due to better SoC and software improvement.

    if anything dont make sense, test it with urself and see if the image get worse or dont have improvement with the 108mp
    so far what most people seeing some improvement with this 108mp pixel binning,
    if there any improvement, then nothing wrong right ? or ur mindset want to stuck at old tech ?
     
  13. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    It is when eventually this trickles down and I don't have another option. Unlike you, I'm not willing to pay extra for unnecessary mediocrity because "hurr durr bigger=better"
    Are you really that short-sighted? How do you not see the problem here? Yes, battery life goes up, storage increases, CPUs get more efficient, but all of that is basically just "keeping up" with the demands of something like a camera sensor that isn't actually yielding better results. Look at the following 2 secenarios:
    A. Keep the camera at 16MP but focus on practical features like progressive shutter or HDR. Since storage, efficiency, and battery life continues to improve, your phone stays on for longer on a single charge, programs run faster/snappier, and you never have to worry about storage. Since the sensor is being refined rather than expanded, it keeps the cost lower while yielding better images. Sounds pretty great, right?
    B. Blow up the image size to ridiculous proportions. The rolling shutter effect is exacerbated. Images will appear grainy or blurry due to needing more exposure. More processing power is needed to handle the larger images. If the images aren't compressed enough, disk speeds will not keep up, and that 512GB of internal storage will run out real fast. If the images are compressed, the CPU will be working extra hard and the image quality will be so poor that you might as well chop off a few dozen MP. Because the sensor is so complex, manufacturing costs will be high.

    Hmm let me think about what the better option is: something that gives better image quality, better performance, better battery life, and at a lower price, or, pay extra for something that will look like crap and drain my phone's finite resources.
    Absolutely: if there is any improvement with no significant drawbacks, then I'm 100% all for it. But the fact of the matter is, this sensor will yield almost entirely negative side effects with no practical advantage at all other than superior digital zoom.
    There are plenty of issues with phone cameras that can be resolved without adding more megapixels, but that doesn't appeal in a marketing perspective to people like you.
     
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  14. Prince Valiant

    Prince Valiant Master Guru

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    The camera on a phone is a throwaway feature for me. I've got a regular camera if I want to take pictures.
     
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  15. slyphnier

    slyphnier Master Guru

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    to put simple than nonsense wall of text
    prove ur old phone can produce as good picture as 108mp pixel binning
    then we can agree that the massive mp sensor is simply BS

    https://www.androidauthority.com/xiaomi-mi-10-pro-camera-1083423/
    https://www.dxomark.com/xiaomi-mi-10-pro-camera-review/
    here the review xiaomi mi 10 pro which using 108mp sensor

    now what negative side effects ? aside from higher pricing ?
     

  16. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    Dude... all of those images are scaled down to a measly 8MP. View those images at a 1:1 ratio and they look like water paintings. Those images are 7% the sensor size and you can already see image quality issues. Not to mention all the image processing necessary to make them look better. That's atrociously bad. Meanwhile, the review listed some of the very cons I was concerned about, regarding darkness. With the same kind of image processing, a flagship phone from 5 years ago could produce similar quality images at 8MP.
    What are you so excited about here? As stated before, the only advantage this sensor has is digital zoom.
    I already mentioned them, but you decided to ignore my "wall of text". Ignorance is bliss, eh? Don't ask me for an answer I already gave you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  17. slyphnier

    slyphnier Master Guru

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    now compared those scaled 8mp with ur "true" 8mp phone picture
    which one better ... simple way to prove right ?
    now u saying the review showing some very cons, then why not post those pictures in here, so we can clearly get what u mean. or u like talking bs without trying to proves what u saying?

    u not even hands-on on the device, not even using it, yet u like think knowing everything
    like it or not, based various review so far the new sensor give improvement in total-picture-quality... if u still denied it, like i already said, dont write, provide some images comparisson

    also what boggling me is that u know and said image-processing while keep blaming the sensor all create that water-like-paintings ? dude really ?

    we both understand what smartphone limitation over full-fledge camera, those lens, sensor size, etc
    now do u have any idea to solve it ? if yes, then why not sign-up become their camera engineer, bet they will pay u pretty good money
    dont tell me, u make complain to tech-advancement while u have no idea to solve it

    i believe is that, what we get now is what engineer think viable to do it "now" with current technology ... and so far we are seeing good progression with smartphone camera photo quality.... so for me, why not?
    but u keep saying that useless... yet u seeing better images with latest phone ... yeah telling other ignorance ....
    well the thing is that nothing will change, u dont like it then u can keep using ur old one.
     
  18. slyphnier

    slyphnier Master Guru

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  19. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    ...what? Speak English.
    I don't need to use it. They literally provide you the photos. There are visible issues with the picture scaled to 7%. Go to the comment section and you'll find plenty of other people un-impressed.
    Go ahead and deny the facts if that makes you feel better. Not my problem.
    The image processing is necessary because the raw image quality is going to be crap. I actually am giving credit that the image processing is making the image look better, not worse. But as a result, it makes the images look like water paintings.
    I don't need to provide any ideas, there are already good viable alternative solutions, most of which are in use, such as (but not limited to):
    1. Use multiple cameras with varying lenses (this seems to be a new trend), or, use swappable lenses
    2. Don't use lenses made of cheap plastic (not sure how many use real glass)
    3. Use a bigger sensor, instead of just a bigger megapixel count (the Red Hydrogen One is a good example)
    4. Improve the image processor to handle progressive shutter or faster framerates (there are a few phones that do this)
    But again - people like you buy into "moar iz better" so they just keep tacking on MP because that's what people like you think is real progress.
    Phone cameras have so much potential and room for improvement. An absurd MP count is not what we need.
    Except there isn't better photo quality... It isn't better technology, it's causing more problems than it fixes.
    Says the one falling for the placebo effect and fawning over 8MP downscaled images...
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  20. I still use a film camera.
     
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