RTX 3060 Ti or Denon AVR-S960h?: 10-bit color issue

Discussion in 'The HTPC, HDTV & Ultra High Definition section' started by Mda400, Dec 27, 2020.

  1. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

    Messages:
    966
    Likes Received:
    129
    GPU:
    3080Ti 1965/21.4G
    Just curious if anyone has seen this image corruption before, but this does not happen if i have the RTX 3060 Ti connected directly to my LG CX 48 OLED by HDMI (2.1).

    It seems to happens when I am outputting 10-bit RGB (full contrast levels) to the Denon AVR-s960h receiver, then repeated to the LG CX 48 OLED. It doesn't happen with 8-bit color, and haven't tried with YCbCr, or a lower refresh rate than 120/119.88hz, but will contact either nvidia or denon (likely denon first) as i want to make sure this setup can work with 10-bit color since the panel can display it for anything that can take advantage of it and i use this setup for computer use at 120hz.

    I am using 2 of these cables from the graphics card, to AVR, then out to TV. Monoprice 8K Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable 6ft - 48Gbps Black
    I also tried with other HDMI cables and it still produces the issue, but again only when connected through the AVR's '8k' input/output.

    I have the AVR's HDMI 4k/8k signal format set to '8k' enhanced (which is required to pass the full 40gbps video bandwidth the AVR supports).
    This also happens whether or not HDMI ARC/eARC, CEC control, and VRR are enabled in the TV / AVR / NVCP as well.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,582
    Likes Received:
    302
    GPU:
    2080 Ti FTW3 Ultra
  3. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

    Messages:
    966
    Likes Received:
    129
    GPU:
    3080Ti 1965/21.4G

    I understand what you are referring to.

    Luckily, Sound United (Denon's parent company) put out a youtube video and statement saying that there isn't actually a universal issue and it was supposedly specific to connection types.
    And i can confirm it does work without issue, but only with 8-bit color.

    I'll see what Denon has me do once they reply to my email i sent them.

    Configuring An NVIDIA RTX 30 Series Graphics Card With A Denon/Marantz Receiver for 4K@120fps Gaming


    Denon & Marantz Announce HDMI 2.1 Receivers 4k/120Hz Works Without Issue!
     
  4. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    11,327
    Likes Received:
    4,251
    GPU:
    GTX 1080ti
    just because a company puts out a video doesn't mean there isn't a problem
     

  5. Martigen

    Martigen Master Guru

    Messages:
    465
    Likes Received:
    213
    GPU:
    GTX 1080Ti SLI
    A potential solution (temporarily, or permanently if you don't get one from Denon) is to use two HDMI outs from the GPU -- 1 goes directly to the LG, the other directly to the Denon.

    Then, in Windows, clone your display. Set the Denon display to something small like 800x600, and drag its position to be for example top right with only its lower left corner touching the upper right corner of your main display -- this will stop your mouse accidentally disappearing into the Denon's display area when navigating around the edge. In fact once you've done this, you'll never know it's there.

    I've been running my system like this for... oh... five odd years :) I always do HDMI out to a receiver (in my case, a Yamaha one) and HDMI/DP to a monitor. I have a 5.1 system connected and I don't like a) compressed audio through SPDIF or b) analog connections from PC to receiver. In this setup it's uncompressed digital all along the pipeline.

    Passthrough is, logically, the better solution if all components support the standards you want (HDR, VRR etc) but failing that, the above works reliably.
     
    PPC and Mda400 like this.
  6. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

    Messages:
    966
    Likes Received:
    129
    GPU:
    3080Ti 1965/21.4G
    I hear you, i did this when my old receiver couldn't pass-through video to my old display.

    eARC makes this unnecessary, but again this issue only happens (intermittently too, will flicker quick then stay normal, then corrupted image. Back & forth) when i select 10-bit color RGB at 4k/120hz (~40 Gbps).
    It doesn't happen using 8-bit color (~32 Gbps) and that is how i am using it currently from PC > AVR > Display.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  7. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

    Messages:
    966
    Likes Received:
    129
    GPU:
    3080Ti 1965/21.4G
    Probably one they may not know about or is isolated to my possibly faulty unit, i don't see similar issues from others when researching the issue.
     
  8. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,582
    Likes Received:
    302
    GPU:
    2080 Ti FTW3 Ultra
    You don't see similar issues? Did you not see the links I posted? Hdmi 2.1 receiver issues are pretty well known at this point.
     
  9. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

    Messages:
    966
    Likes Received:
    129
    GPU:
    3080Ti 1965/21.4G
    I did see the links you posted, but you may not have read my response or have misunderstood my first post.

    I understand what you were referring to, but i do not have the black screen issue which all of your links point to.

    This is debunked/clarified by at least denon/marantz.
    In this link you posted, it has an update confirming this - https://www.audioholics.com/news/bug-in-hdmi-2.1-chipsets

    " Update 12/9/20: It turns out Denon & Marantz HDMI 2.1 AV receivers supports 4k/120Hz without issues."

    I too can confirm 4k@120hz works through my AVR-s960h, just not reliably with 10-bit RGB color as seen in the pictures i posted.



     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  10. Duobleray

    Duobleray New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    RTX 3080
    Any update on this issue? I just purchased mine and noticed the issue once I switched to 10 bit. 10bit when connected directly to the TV works just fine. I searched online for help, however, I haven't seen the issue mentioned elsewhere.
     

    Attached Files:


  11. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

    Messages:
    966
    Likes Received:
    129
    GPU:
    3080Ti 1965/21.4G
    Not yet. Denon said they are investigating the issue and will give an update in the future.

    "Thank you for contacting Denon Support, we value you as a customer and appreciate the opportunity to be of assistance!

    Please be informed that we are now investigating and working about this issue and we are going to release a much detailed information about this soon.

    If you have any further questions please feel free to contact us again.

    Thank you for contacting Denon Customer Support. Have a great day!

    Regards,

    Jhunie
    Customer Support Representative
    Denon
    Sound United North America "


    I'll ask for an update to see if they say anything further.

    Edit:

    "Response By Email (Customer Care Team) (01/17/2021 08:09 PM)

    We would like to get it resolved too as soon as possible. Unfortunately, we haven't receive any update when would it be possible get a fix. But no worries, rest assured that we are really working on this.

    Regards,

    Jhunie
    Customer Support Representative
    Denon
    Sound United North America"
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
  12. Duobleray

    Duobleray New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    RTX 3080
    Thank for getting back to me. Denon never replied to my email so I just returned the receiver I appreciate the help.
     
    insp1re2600 likes this.
  13. bleejean

    bleejean New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2
    GPU:
    RTX3080
    I’m having the exact same issue TC. I have a 3080, LG GX, and a Denon x3700h. I think I’m even using the same HDMI cables. The weird colour issue only appears when connected though the receiver (not directly to the TV) and only appears sporadically. I also want to run 4K/120/10bit with full RGB. I prefer to have the PC connected through the receiver as it allows me to control the volume with my TV remote and it also turns the receiver off and on with the TV automatically.
    I’ll try contacting Denon about this issue as well.
     
    Mda400 likes this.
  14. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

    Messages:
    966
    Likes Received:
    129
    GPU:
    3080Ti 1965/21.4G
    Not sure if you had found resolution to this issue, but after trying the SPK618 HDMI adapter (as recommended by denon support) and it causing audio to randomly drop out (but did fix this 10-bit color issue), i am sending my AVR into one of Denon's national US repair centers to have it looked at and will see what they do/find. It does also occur using the 3080 Ti.

    Probably still an issue with the HDMI chipset as a whole, but hopefully this will allow them to either correctly identify a future fix for the problem or they already silently have one and i possibly will receive it back without this issue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  15. Valken

    Valken Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    1,848
    Likes Received:
    226
    GPU:
    Forsa 1060 3GB Temp GPU
    I am not an AV gear guy, but from the description, this appears to be bandwidth throughput limitations of the receivers in pass through mode. When you have firmware updates like this, it is either low component driver updates, bug fixes, features, but to give more or unlock performance from the system is iffy, depending if they overbuilt it in first place.

    I suspect with component shortages, it is not overbuilt with extra overhead. Sounds like they are trying to fiddle with compression levels to give 10-output @ 4K-120HZ but failing.

    Best to demo the gear at a dealer then purchase it as a matching system - receive + cables for example.

    My background is in networking so take it with a grain of salt but throughput is throughput at the end of the day...
     

  16. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

    Messages:
    966
    Likes Received:
    129
    GPU:
    3080Ti 1965/21.4G
    Whether the AV receiver is off (in standy/pass-through mode) or on, this issue occurs.
    Even switching to certified Ultra High-Speed HDMI cables did not solve the issue.

    It properly acts as an HDMI repeater, passing what the EDID contains in regards to what my display is capable of to the graphics card.

    As stated by others above, there have been other issues due to the HDMI 2.1 chipset in this AVR and certain HDMI 2.1 source devices, but i had not found anyone else report this issue online until making this thread.

    Simply, i did not mind being a guinea pig for this newer technology and just bought it outright without testing at a dealer.
    It's benefits outweighed the risks for me.

    Anything lower than 40gbps seems to work without issue (4k/120hz, VRR, surround sound formats, etc.), but since it is a specification to be adhered to, it still being under warranty, and has an issue that should otherwise work it needs to be fixed.

    HDMI 2.1 uses 16b/18b encoding which uses 18 bits of bandwidth to send 16 bits of data, so 88.8% of the transmission bit rate is available for data throughput.
    4k/120hz 10-bit RGB requires 32.27 Gbps of video bandwidth.
    This AVR is marketed for up-to 40 Gbps, which is 35.52 Gbps after factoring in the 16b/18b encoding overhead.
    No compression needs to be used to achieve that video format.
     
  17. Valken

    Valken Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    1,848
    Likes Received:
    226
    GPU:
    Forsa 1060 3GB Temp GPU
    It sounds there is OVERHEAD not being accounted for even though the HDMI 2.1 chipset is rated at 40 Gbps. What is the rated workload to achieve that? 100% load? 90%, 80%?

    In networking, even though we are passing packets, there is still an amount of encryption or signaling overhead that you rarely get 100% throughput UNLESS you have built in for that OVERHEAD, usually between 10-20% more, so at 80% CPU load, the max port to port or firewall non encrypted throughput is ~ XX Gbps or whatever it is rated.

    Cheaper home use devices will get really close to 100% workload to max it out while commercial and enterprise devices have room to spare due to more powerful components and other services like encryption.

    I suspect, not sure, it is marketing saying 40 Gbps performance as per the chipset ratings, but they forget to say that is at 100% sustained workload completely maxed out. When you add in overhead, there will be some reduction in peak performance.

    But in high quality AV gear, I would assume it would built in overhead to maintain advertised performance without having the gear run at 100% and to improve device life expectancy.

    It is probably bad compatibility issues due to so many vendors doing their own "flavors" of HDMI or some vendors supporting a subset or minimum specs to get certified as HDMI 2.1.

    Surprised their recommended cable still has problems which tells me their qualification process have not "thoroughly" tested for MAX performance usage.
     
  18. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

    Messages:
    966
    Likes Received:
    129
    GPU:
    3080Ti 1965/21.4G
    I understand what you are saying.

    At the end of the day, it is a specification that must be adhered to and the chipset produced by Panasonic solutions (now owned by nuvoton) has shown to have issues.

    There was a clearly a lack of testing before releasing AVR's with this problematic HDMI chipset. Unfortunately, the consumer could not know that when I bought it in back in July 2020, when no HDMI 2.1 sources existed for sale.

    But again, I do not mind being a guinea pig for this stuff as the benefits this new version brings for entertainment outweigh the risks to me.

    Connecting directly to my display does not produce this issue, so the cables are not the cause of it.
     
  19. Mda400

    Mda400 Master Guru

    Messages:
    966
    Likes Received:
    129
    GPU:
    3080Ti 1965/21.4G
    Update on this - supposedly getting my unit back on Friday, August 13th. Will see if the issue is resolved when I do.

    They were able to reproduce this issue (PanurgyOEM, one of Denon's national US repair center partners) and said they replaced the HDMI board under warranty. Obtaining the part was said to have a 10-14 day lead time. They received my unit on July 30th and gave me the notice yesterday August 10th, that it was being shipped back to me. Just an indication on the current time it would take for someone else to get their unit repaired.

    Edit: They said they could reproduce the issue and replaced the HDMI board, but seems like they still don't understand the issue I am having as the issue is still not fixed...

    How can you reproduce something, replace the part, and seems not test to make sure the issue isn't still there before sending the unit back to me?

    I emailed the service center that "repaired" my unit, that it wasn't fixed and showed image proof of it as well. We'll see what happens now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2021
    Valken likes this.
  20. PPC

    PPC Active Member

    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    28
    GPU:
    3070
    Nothing will happen, those passthru options are just pure crap. They will market the "latest and greatest" but in my experience it universally will not work, only works a notch below (if they say 10bit, then 8bit works, if they say 4k/120 you can only really expect 4k/60, etc). They basically just "serviced" you by replacing the board but thats the easiest thing they could have done to "wash hands" of the problem.

    Just use the 2 cables method, youll also avoid the repeater latency this way which can be substantial depending on your gaming needs, wont be noticeable for turn based strategies but for shooters you bet it will.
     

Share This Page