RTG: When will we get IQ features for DX12/Vulkan?

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Drivers Section' started by Eastcoasthandle, Aug 1, 2020 at 1:03 AM.

  1. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    There are some outdated IQ features that only work in DX9. It would be nice to get an update to the Advance features of Adrenaline and get more IQ options that effect DX12/Vulkan games.

    AA
    AF
    AA Methods
    etc., all only work in DX9. It would be nice to have replacement for these for DX12/Vulkan or some sort of substitute of some kind. I'm still skeptical that Surface Format Optimization and Tessellation mode works in DX12/Vulkan as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 1:11 AM
  2. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Ancient Guru

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    Some samples beside a couple of anti-alias options that cannot applied on modern APIs and rendering algorithms? You know, with Direct3D 9 and previous APIs, games were pretty simple and straightforward in the rendering path (ie: forward pass), so no deferred rendering, no hybrid rendering, no clustered rendering etc.. there were no direct management of swap-chain, fewer resource formats and everything was an hack or so... So.. Yes, you cannot have a driver that adds complex filters on modern games. Moreover, games today uses shader to implement complex and custom filtering, so you cannot count on a fixed-function filter option on the driver control panel. In DirectX Tesselation is still a fixed function stage, however things can happen in other shader stages, moreover tessellation could be implemented via shader as well. "Surface format optimization" is just small table-hack for some resource format to convert them on the fly for performance reason. Forcing and changing it in more cases could cause catastrophic issues, you know, if a shader expect a resource in a certain format and you change it it may not work well or at all, causing instability and crashes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 1:19 AM
  3. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    Sure, sure. Let me tell you why I created this thread.
    I play Modern Warfare and I wanted to enable AF in the profile to guarantee x16 in game (as driver level AF was always better then in game). I was shocked to see that AF only works in DX9 games, for example.

    As I examined the other features they too only work in DX9.

    I understand that DX12/Vulkan games may not work with AA any more. But AF in Modern Warfare (DX12) should work in the drivers. That's just one example.

    There are other examples like further expanding options for RIS and implementation of Sapphire Trixx Boost directly in driver level. But IMHO, the Advance features as a whole needs a revamp for current DX12/Vulkan games.
     
  4. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Ancient Guru

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    We are no more in the 2000's. Sorry, but most sophisticated filtering techniques cannot be applied on modern games and modern APIs. You may need a driver team working for a specific feature making it run on a single game, that is costly and risky since a game patch could screw everything. Microsoft itself caused a lot of issues and headaches changing the swap-chain of the front buffer behavior on 10 just to trying to improve the frame latency a little bit on certain range of games using a certain swap-chain configurations. And that is nothing compered to altering resource formats or content.
     

  5. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    Trixx Boost and RIS isn't from 2000. Those are fairly new features since the 5700 xt series. And I find it odd that if the game offers AF one can't use better AF from the driver. I'm fully aware of the limitations in AA, etc. However, there should be some sort of alternative that is simplistic for current games. For example, RAL which was a very good idea. It's those innovations that keep features of the Radeon relevant.
     
  6. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    Anisotropic filtering should work across everything at least, Vulkan has settings for adjusting it from I think extensions even (And also tessellation factor for that override AMD has.) and I'd imagine D3D12 wouldn't be too different for overriding either of those.
    Anti-aliasing though that's a tough one as the very way the frame is rendered is now far more complicated and the frame or buffers and texture surfaces and well I'm not that good at it but it's complicated.

    Deferred rendering already made traditional MSAA more complex, costly and less efficient though FSAA or the more common brute forcing via downsampling remains though the performance cost is also very hefty so it's more work on temporal anti-aliasing means or what NVIDIA does by upscaling and super-sampling although the per-game implementation and exclusivity to NVIDIA as it's their tech and research means adaption will be limited.

    Sharpening or at least CAS doesn't really have many options exposed at least from the source data although the game implementation of Fidelity FX allows for some extras while also giving the possibility of drawing it before elements like the UI are rendered. :)


    Suppose at least some of it also stems from deferring to Microsoft recommended and best practices like the existing VSync toggle and triple-buffering only applying overrides for OpenGL even if the game lacks settings for this.
    Advanced overrides would be nice but complications around the newer API's and tech and standards and AMD following these probably means it's not happening or requires third party tools to override forcibly.
     
  7. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Ancient Guru

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    Trixx boost is a nice addition and may work in a good range of games without major issues. Probably AMD prefer to invest on RIS for performance reason (a technical reason I may think about to not choose Trixx boost is the memory footprint required, it could fake games/application in the correct management of the VRAM). AF may be more complex that we used to think, it may need to be fine tuned (eg: using different filtering options or a custom shader to fade the range transition between filtered and unfiltered resources) and on certain resource format may be expensive or not working at all (DXGI has a huge fan of resource formats, depending on the architecture some may be a lot expensive to manage). AA custom filtering of course is a no-go outside super-sampling (which has a huge performance cost). Dunno what RAL stands for.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 11:35 AM
  8. itpro

    itpro Master Guru

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    It's not so hard as it sounds. All xbox one x games are using forced af 16x and downscale 4k to 1440p/1080p. This console uses amd apu. If amd wants can force successfully new features in an os level. Games need not to be optimized or anything. But perhaps there will be issues we are not aware. I suggest you should not care for unimportant things as those. They won't help you either win a game or conquer.
     
  9. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, I honestly believe that we should be able to still use AF in DX12/Vulkan titles. MW2019 is DX12 and has it in game but I can tell that AF from the driver would be better.
    Although GUI looks great I find it hard to understand why some of these DX9 features only weren't updated for features sets that can run on current games. I mean come on now MLAA was introduced years ago to augment MSAA.

    AF is free now a days so there is not excuse for not having it. And why am I relying on Trixx for up/down scaling? That should also be in the drivers already with more advanced features.
     
  10. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Ancient Guru

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    AF is almost free if properly used. It's not if applied indiscriminately on every resource or on every resource format.
     
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  11. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    i've still seen no evidence that driver side AF does anything for dx12 and vulkan on any vendor driver:confused:
     
  12. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Ancient Guru

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    I never forced AA and AF filters on modern games... Never had a reason to do...
     
  13. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    Many custom AF implementations are less than 16x
     
  14. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    It has worked for D3D12 since the very beginning on Nvidia. The fact that they don't offer it for Vulkan is just bad decision making, just like it's bad decisions by AMD to not even support it for D3D12.
    It works fine on Linux with RADV Vulkan driver and you can even force it via libstrangle Vulkan layer, independent of any driver. It's ~for free and just works without issues if a game isn't using something like virtual texturing (which many don't).
     
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  15. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    I must agree with this. Again, there is absolutely no reason why driver level AF isn't working in DX12 games that specifically use it, for example.

    We also need IQ alternatives for those features that are not feasible for DX12/Vulkan. RIS/RAL are a start but it should never be an end. We need a whole lot more.

    I've already suggested incorporating Trixx Boost into the drivers as an example. How about a replacement for MLAA. I doubt anyone still uses that.

    What I'm saying is that anyone can go into the drivers right now, go to:
    Graphics > Advance
    and see a bunch of options they can no longer use in today's games. That needs to change.

    Are they seriously considering release a new graphics card with advance features they can only use in old DX9 games? Are they serious right now?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020 at 12:56 AM

  16. Chastity

    Chastity Ancient Guru

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    While Trixx Boost makes setting up Res Scaling easy, it's not that hard to configure it manually in Radeon Settings.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020 at 12:52 AM
  17. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Ancient Guru

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    Yes, you are right, but mostly bad console porting games, which are limited usually to x4 AF.
     
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  18. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    Often it is textures of single elements that don't receive full AF. Though the terrain texture filtering of CoD Warzone marks a new low, never seen anything more ridiculous. Forcing AF for it via NV driver seems to work just fine...
     
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  19. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    It is for this reason I wanted to use driver level AF. I'm shocked that it's not available for MW and read a lot of excuses why it's not available.

    At the bottom of the barrel AF should be a working IQ feature.
     
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  20. Eastcoasthandle

    Eastcoasthandle Ancient Guru

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    True, however the ease of use and overall optics of how one seeings the Adrenaline GUI makes for a compelling argument that shows fit and polish.

    It can be off putting to tell someone on the forum that if you want to quickly get a performance boost use Sapphire Trixx when that user may not have a Sapphire card! Do you know how many times I've created a custom resolution in Adrenalin's Radeon Settings? Zero. I've never found a need to create a custom resolution other then to tinker with the feature to see if it actually worked. But it's so easy to do it in trixx you can enable it and forget it it 1 to 3 clicks. Taking out all the guess work. Making it easy for everyone. Again, optics!!!

    But that's just one feature. Now lets tie that into AMD FidelityFX CAS and or Radeon Image Sharpening. Think of the possibilities. It could address both AA and AF along with performance all in one. And here I am just brain storming here!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020 at 7:37 PM
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