Review: Battlefield V: DLSS PC performance update

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Feb 14, 2019.

  1. leszy

    leszy Master Guru

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    We all know that bitmaps can not be enlarged arbitrarily, because even the most perfect filter can not extract/display sub-pixel information, because it has not been saved (it simply does not exist). The same applies to upscaling. You can create the illusion of sharpness at first glance, but no anti-aliasing technique will allow you to display details that have not been rendered due to the low resolution of the rendered frame. Perhaps it's worth checking whether, in general, using high resolution textures makes sense with DLSS enabled? Maybe smaller textures will not worsen the quality of the image and will boost fps?
     
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  2. HardwareCaps

    HardwareCaps Master Guru

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    New anti-aliasing techniques are always welcomed, giving the user freedom of choice and flexibility.

    The issue is that DLSS requires dedicated hardware and is only supported by a single architecture(so far). you're basically paying in terms of thermals, die-size, transistors for DLSS.
    if DLSS doesn't prove itself to be very close in terms of visuals then it makes no sense, that die-space can be used instead for CUDA cores that will negate the performance "increase" gained by DLSS
    while still being 100% useful on all available games.
     
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  3. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    Volta is essentially the same architecture as Turing and Titan V has significantly more CUDA cores than a 2080Ti yet performs identically (even when both are overclocked) because the entire architecture is essentially TDP limited. Regardless, Tensor 'cores' exist within the SM - they aren't discreet cores but operational modes of SM/ALUs - same as RT 'cores'. They add some negligible amount of die space but for the most part they reuse existing transistors within the SM. People keep alluding to the fact that they take up all this die space but no one has been able to explain to me how Nvidia managed to get the same CUDA/MM2 density as GP100, on the same process density, with double the cache, dispatch units and RT/Tensor that "take up a ton of space".

    Further AMD exposed INT4/8 for ML inferencing on Vega 7 presumably to support some type of GPUOpen variant of DLSS on DirectML - which they alluded to doing. DirectML support's tensors so even if there was a vendor agnostic standard it would still utilize the hardware.
     
  4. MonstroMart

    MonstroMart Master Guru

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    Going by the screenshots posted i think it looks better with DLSS off. Looks less detailed and slightly blurry with DLSS. Looks like the game is running in an inferior resolution than the native monitor resolution and upscaled with a good upscaler. No reason to do that if you are running an expensive 4k monitor. Might as well spend the extra money to get a 2080TI and run the game without DLSS.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
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  5. HardwareCaps

    HardwareCaps Master Guru

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    not sure where you got that info(nvidia didn't reveal much) but in their blog they clearly state that Tensor cores populate a decent amount out of the SMs while RT cores take additional die-space.
    they managed to get more cache in because of the fact that the die-sizes are much bigger on Turing(also 12nm does improve density slightly)
    [​IMG]

    https://devblogs.nvidia.com/nvidia-turing-architecture-in-depth/


    Also a clear indication is that transistor count has grown between Pascal and Turing on the same CUDA count.
    GTX 2060 - https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-rtx-2060.c3310
    10,800 transistors, 445 mm die
    GTX 1070 - https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-gtx-1070.c2840
    7,200 transistors, 314 mm die

    huge difference
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  6. Mesab67

    Mesab67 Master Guru

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    Thanks for the update Hilbert.

    I don't buy this. Any feature that effectively lowers final output resolution, particularly of textures, just to lower processing cost/meet fps acceptability is a worrying trend. What's the point in developing high/"ultra" res textures (/later 'texture packs') in the first place? I'm sure the game artists will getting pretty pissed off.
    We see the same with the RT feature - scene RT complexity reduction to meet fps targets. I do wish Nvidia placed a higher weighting on their QA department than marketing...get your act together Nvidia!!
    I purchased a 1440p monitor for one primary reason - to be able to benefit from higher resolution, crisp graphics. I don't want the artists hard work smeared.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
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  7. Maddness

    Maddness Maha Guru

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    You're not forced to use it. Luckily if you have a 20 series card you can disable it in the settings. Now it would be a worry if it was forced on. So far what we have seen of DLSS, it has to be said is rather disappointing. After reading up on it, I had high hopes for it, but it certainly needs a lot of work if it is to be taken seriously moving forward.
     
  8. Mesab67

    Mesab67 Master Guru

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    "You're not forced to use it. Luckily if you have a 20 series card you can disable it in the settings. Now it would be a worry if it was forced on. So far what we have seen of DLSS, it has to be said is rather disappointing. After reading up on it, I had high hopes for it, but it certainly needs a lot of work if it is to be taken seriously moving forward."

    Yes, it would be a big issue if it was forced on and they would have been daft to have done so. But, It does bring us back to Marketing overriding QA (push it out, we'll fix it later...we promise ;) ) - never a good move.
     
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  9. pharma

    pharma Maha Guru

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    If training each resolution took weeks SaturnV would be one of the slowest supercomputers in the world. Fortunately it is ranked 28th fastest in the world so depending on the number of images provided by game development it shouldn't take more than a few hours to produce the initial algorithm required for any game.
     
  10. pharma

    pharma Maha Guru

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    Metro will get a day one patch which will improve DLSS over the review code:
    • Tuned DLSS sharpness to improve image quality
    • Updated learned data for DLSS to improve image quality with DLSS on
    • Fixed blurred UI when DLSS is enabled
    https://www.metrothegame.com/news/patch-notes-summary/
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
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  11. Maddness

    Maddness Maha Guru

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    This will be interesting. Stay tuned. Not sure if i would get my hopes up just yet though.
     
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  12. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    Those images are artist renditions - they aren't how the physical chip is laid out on a transistor level. Compare any of Nvidia's "die shots" to an actual microscope die shot of the same GPU - it's often pretty different. Also that picture doesn't even show the FP64 units for compatibility on Turing.

    The 7.5T library they are using on 12nm doesn't improve density - only the 6.5T one does.

    I compared GP100 to Titan RTX for CUDA/MM2 because GP100 is the only pascal die that features FP16x2 which requires a number of registers. GP104 doesn't utilize FP16x2. Cache size & number of dispatch units doubled with Turing, cache being one of the most transistor dense units on the GPU. The ALUs do the actual computing and when clustered can function in different operational modes. Some transistors are required to add these modes but for the most part the actual silicon in the ALU is reused. If every single marketed 'core' had a separate ALU with it's own dedicated silicon the die sizes would be astronomical. If you want further proof run PyTorch on the GPU and then hit it with a FP32 workload and watch the performance of both drop - you have a fixed number of ALU's and both workloads are sharing them. It's not like you can do full INT/RTX/FP16/FP32 simultaneously.
     
  13. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    Well this looks like a bum deal.
    You can be sure they made it look as good as they can to prevent backlash and its still not up to the job.
    They spent a long time preparing so it must be pretty close to as good as it gets.
    Question is, how much better/worse does running 1440p on a UHD screen look?

    Fingers crossed Metro runs fast enough not to need DLSS.
     
  14. Dazz

    Dazz Master Guru

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    Yes it is, well on the RTX2080, IDK about the RTX 2080Ti I get around 80fps with RTX on ultra and DLSS. Before i had to turn turn RTX down to med to get around the same performance, ultra used to make it choke as i would run out of VRAM, However the new patch seems to make the game unstable and seems to randomly crash, e.g exiting a single player game to go to the main menu causes it to crash.

    Also long distance there's shimmering.
     
  15. Maddness

    Maddness Maha Guru

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    Metro will get a day one patch which will improve DLSS over the review code:
    • Tuned DLSS sharpness to improve image quality
    • Updated learned data for DLSS to improve image quality with DLSS on
    • Fixed blurred UI when DLSS is enabled
    https://www.metrothegame.com/news/patch-notes-summary/
     

  16. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    I'm not sure how that helps when we dont know what it looks like to start with or what it looks like after.
     
  17. SamuelL421

    SamuelL421 Member Guru

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    I played a few rounds with DLSS enabled at 4k on a 2080ti. Previously I had been playing at 1440p ultra and RTX enabled.

    Some takeaways:

    Pros:
    • Random frame drops which had happened once or twice a match on RTX-heavy maps (rotterdam) at 1440p are either no longer present or at least not noticeable.
    • DLSS is excellent as means of AA. Lines that give definition to 3D objects with curves are noticeably smoothed out.
    • Subtle blur makes some objects look more "real" IMO (mostly with objects further away, enemies in motion). It's hard to describe and difficult to show in a still image.

    Cons:
    • Feels a bit heavy-handed. Like there needs to be a DLSS Low / DLSS high setting. FPS spikes over 60 in scenes where blur is noticeable and detracting from picture quality.
    • As mentioned in the review, only available for 4k with a 2080ti (why?).
    • Subtle blur makes some objects look muddy - items in the "foreground" or close to the player can be noticeably worse looking.
    • Anywhere the blurring results in textures with less detail - see previous bullets.
    I honestly don't know which of these is preferable now, 1440p RTX or 4k RTX / DLSS. I personally like the RTX effect in BFV enough to leave it on and DLSS does make RTX a better experience from an FPS standpoint. That said, I hope it is improved/optimized further so that the worst texture blur is less noticeable and/or we get some additional options.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  18. Clawedge

    Clawedge Ancient Guru

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    this would be interesting
     
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  19. ScreamerRSA

    ScreamerRSA Member

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    More like DLSS turns him into a Hollywood celeb asking for a smooth over :p
     
  20. HWgeek

    HWgeek Master Guru

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    LOL!
    Indeed - DLSS can be very welcome in the Celebs Photoshoped albums, DLSS will make all their wrinkle/skin problems disappear and will make their skin smooth like baby's face :)
    DLSS should be Instagram/Photoshop Plug-In for skin smoothing/Anti-Aging affect!
    And I don't wan't to mention one of the big film making industry that will very much appreciate such a great skin fine details removal algorithms for their 4K/8K videos in future ;-).
    https://i.**********/YCtpvMyL/before-after-photoshop-celebrities-38-57d1347c1b9c5-700.jpg

    P.S I don't remember where I read this but in some comments on DLSS in BFV, some claimed thad DLSS made some of the enemy too blurry to see(Far away?) so it just hurts the game and you should disable it, did you noticed it too?
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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