Remedy Shows RTX Raytraing performance cost

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. DeskStar

    DeskStar Maha Guru

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    Nice to see. I guess in due time we will see what AMD has to offer in comparison.

    Would be nice to see team red on top of the performance per watt scheme of things once again..... Make the "others" tighten up that shot group and make things more competitive price/performance wise!!

    PLEASE AMD bring some big guns sooner than later and shut down this BS excuse of pricing that has come about today!!!
     
  2. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    Lol what are you talking about? None of the RTX games so far even utilize the tensor cores and even if they did the performance impact from RT isn't even the denoising process. So adding more tensor cores, even if they were utilized, wouldn't even improve performance.

    https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/asus physx_05040650504/11896.png

    https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/physxsbigbreakunrealtournament_120807062915/16150.png

    https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/bfg physx_05170620555/11966.png

    They honestly did neither. Even in Ageia's absurd maps/demos there was physics enabled on everything just for the sake of it and the performance was bad:

    https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/physxsbigbreakunrealtournament_120807062915/16148.png

    Even now devs/third parties are more than capable of building physics middleware for GPUs utilizing DirectCompute and whatnot and no one does it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  3. Rx4speed

    Rx4speed Member Guru

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    Plenty, like Battlefield 5, and certainly no competitive Battle Royal player will use it. RT will be available in BFV, but i bet almost NO ONE uses RT in this title. You cannot afford to run around at 30-60fps. YOU WILL DIE.
    Now if I'm playing Tomb Raider single player...oh wait, I have a 1440p monitor and I probably wouldn't use for those titles either. Competitive racing simulator games? Nope, not a chance. FPS and input lag are too important. Maybe Fallout or something like that, but for me, I'd turn on RT in maybe 1 out of 10 titles I play. As a 1080 ti owner, only the 2080ti makes any performance sense to me, and really only for VR, as I have a G-sync monitor for non-VR titles. But, $1200-$1400 for a 2080ti. Rubbish.

    Don't get me wrong, this new Tech is amazing. However, it's not ready for the gaming masses, and the prices are insane. Tons of 2080's in stock at Newegg. 2070s will sell even worse. The Ti's are sold out because the Ti's are the only ones that make sense, but should be less than $1000.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  4. fellix

    fellix Member Guru

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    The sad truth is that Turing is too expensive for the conventional performance upgrade it provides and too slow for its marquee feature (ray-tracing). By the time developers get deep enough into ray-tracing, the 7nm GPUs will be out with better HW implementation and (hopefully) more reasonable pricing.
     

  5. pharma

    pharma Ancient Guru

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    Unfortunately they did not optimize the demo ... will be nice to see what the final optimized product looks like next year.
     
  6. tunejunky

    tunejunky Maha Guru

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    to me it's funny that after gimping compute on their cards Nvidia adds compute (aka Ray Tracing cores).
    ironic
     
  7. Rich_Guy

    Rich_Guy Ancient Guru

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    AMDs done.
     
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  8. tunejunky

    tunejunky Maha Guru

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    says the guy rocking a Vega 64? curiouser and curiouser.

    and really though just like Public Enemy rapped "Don't Believe The Hype"... of red or green.

    but if you can read shipping lists and production schedules at fabs you can believe w/o hype.
    and of course independent 3rd party testers like HH
     
  9. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    What do you mean, isnt it one and the same thing just different name.

    Tensor, rt., etc. Both are deep learning cores.
     
  10. TieSKey

    TieSKey Member Guru

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    Actually, holler is right here, even if he doesn't sound like he knows why. On a static scene u can achieve most of those effects with baked lightning and reflection probes all over the place. If u really want to show off real time ray tracing goodness, u NEED moving objects generating occlusion, reflections, shadows, etc........


    ---------------------------------------------------


    On a different topic, the idea of introducing some specific hardware for RT, adding it as an "effect" over old good rasterization is not bad as a first step to introduce the technology.
    The real problems here are 2:
    First, the prices are pure greed. If 20xx had the exactly same prices as 10xx, effectively replacing them, nobody would be complaining at the low gains in raster performance or the impacts of enabling RT.
    Second, it looks that nvidia was more interesting in selling their "tensor" hardware to regular customers and save some money on development/production rather than to really introduce ray tracing tech to the masses.
     

  11. TieSKey

    TieSKey Member Guru

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    They are not the same, the guy from nvidia in the above video even says so.

    Btw: "deep learning" is just a marketing name, it's not different that "regular" machine learning. In the best case it just means u are using a 20 layer neural network instead of a 4 layer one. Not that deep actually :p
     
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  12. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    You're making a different argument. I was talking about his defining the tech based on this demo. You're discussing the demo itself and giving your opinion of what they should have done. Your 'different topic' is just a rehash of the some complaint every one has: Their personal preference for more GP cores and less 'wasted space on tech I won't use'. Your other argument regarding tensor cores makes no sense. Explain what your 'really introduce ray tracing tech to the masses' means. Reads like a throw away line with no substance to it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  13. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    Exactly, the miniscule amount of 'pro players' who reduce the settings to nothing for maximum FPS. You're making exactly the wrong argument of wanting your preference of just pure fugly FPS over glorious visuals and high FPS.
    I don't care about your niche.
     
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  14. Jonathanese

    Jonathanese Member

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    It's interesting they are pushing direct reflections so hard this early on. This doesn't seem like a very good use of the limited resources so far. I mean I get they are trying to show it off in more obvious ways, but I can think of a few better uses for raytracing.

    - Right now, screen-space reflections get 90% of the way there and is nearly free in terms of performance. Maybe use a few rays to fill in the gaps, but not full-on reflections yet.

    - Ambient occlusion is usually much more costly and never quite looks right, but it is a more smeared effect, so you can get away with fewer rays while getting some really good ambient occlusion.

    - Raytraced global illumination would probably be the best use of raytracing for now. Global illumination is still one of the most taxing tasks, and engines like Frostbite still used preprocess, "cooked" GI. Tensor cores could make this really cheap to offload from the main cores. GI and PBR have probably the biggest effect on getting us past the uncanny valley. PBR is pretty much cost-free and tensor cores could make GI comparatively cost-free when handled separately in a deferred renderer.
     
  15. TieSKey

    TieSKey Member Guru

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    Oh, I got u wrong then, but anyway demos do exist to show off the tech, if the demo is badly designed the tech will get (wrongly) bashed. And the part about baking and reflection probes was not just an uninformed opinion, I'm no industry leader but I do game and graphics related programming for a living.

    Ray Tracing is nothing new, it's been here for as long as rasterization, it was just too expensive to run it on real time on older hardware and now, even if more or less possible we are too deep into raster to make a complete switch. This is probably the first attempt at giving (partial) real time Ray Tracing to regular customers/gamers thus the "masses".
    And no, I never said I wanted more or less RT hardware, I just stated the price is too high (which we all agree upon) and that "tensor" hardware (which is not the same as RT hardware) is of almost no use for games.
     

  16. TieSKey

    TieSKey Member Guru

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    I agree on 1 and 2, but the nvidia guy in the above video said "tensor" hardware can't really run in parallel with raster and rt hardware so no free GI (and I doubt this "tensor" hard is actually good for lightning calculations, I mean, that's what raster and RT are made for, but it's true u can drop precision when working with subtle effects so it might work).
     
  17. pharma

    pharma Ancient Guru

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    I wouldn't take too much from this demo except to say the Remedy engine might need some work. Below is Remedy's Quantum Break run on a 2080 Ti on DX11 struggling with performance.
     
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  18. tunejunky

    tunejunky Maha Guru

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    unlike game devs having access to RTX cards, Nvidia has had full access to *all* game engines. to show a game engine struggling with performance (on 2080ti) is to show shoddy drivers. which should have been looked at pre-release. or are the drivers only for the most popular games...? {rhetorical question}
     
  19. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    I see, I did watch that but didn't pay close attention.


    If it's not the same or a separate thing, idl why they even bothered with actual tensor cores. Might as well save that extra space and ditch tensors for just RT cores.
     
  20. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Tensors do DLSS. So, no tensors - no extra technological lock-in.
     
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