Radeon RX Vega for consumers might still be out a couple of months

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, May 22, 2017.

  1. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    7,821
    Likes Received:
    710
    GPU:
    Inno3D RTX 3090
    That was Dirk Meyer, I would argue. And also the single reason that NVIDIA is getting that price value (which is by far not the most important metric in a company), is the current deep learning craze. What she's doing is trying to tap that for AMD. I don't know how you can believe that they could have created complex chips (even Polaris 10 surely took at least 3 years to design) that fast.

    She's seriously doing just fine. She's presiding over AMD's recovery, if nothing else.
     
  2. Loophole35

    Loophole35 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    9,793
    Likes Received:
    1,148
    GPU:
    EVGA 1080ti SC
    No your right the most important metric to judge a company by is not its value or profits. It's how the customer feels when they buy the product.

    Oh wait no it's not.
     
  3. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    7,821
    Likes Received:
    710
    GPU:
    Inno3D RTX 3090
    The market value is not a proper appreciation of a company. It's a good indicator, and NVIDIA is doing GREAT. But they're also riding a very specific wave almost by accident.

    They had the same CEO when they f*cked up all their deals with Microsoft, SONY and Samsung, and when they released Fermi and the GeForce FX. CEOs aren't the beginning and end of anything.
     
  4. Loophole35

    Loophole35 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    9,793
    Likes Received:
    1,148
    GPU:
    EVGA 1080ti SC
    Fermi turned out alright. FX was very early in the company's history. Iirc M$ and Sony wanted x86 and Nvidia doesn't have a x86 license. Meh Samsung appears to be run by a man-child half the time with their add campaigns (not the resent ones).

    Look me and you are not going to see eye to eye on this one.
     

  5. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    11,810
    Likes Received:
    3,366
    GPU:
    6900XT+AW@240Hz
    You know nothing about technology and possibilities HBM opens. Luckily some people at AMD do understand that there is more than today. And understand their limited cash flow.

    If AMD went GDDR5X route, there would never be single HBM chip prototype and stuff that will come within next 3 years with HBM goodness would never exist.
    IIRC nVidia's sales pitch had no chance because of prior horrid experience those companies had with nVidia.
    And nVidia's support did suck badly too apparently.

    When client comes and asks for technology to do this and that, AMD delivers what client asks for. (Semi-Custom Division)
    When client approaches same way nVidia, they will tell him: "This is what we have, this is what you get!"
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  6. AlmondMan

    AlmondMan Master Guru

    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    162
    GPU:
    5700 XT Red Devil
    Over that 5 years having taken the company from non-competitor to able to compete and sporting a solid 5 year plan with technology that is highly competitive and built for the future, spending resources setting up an ecosystem for consumers that makes the highly threaded CPUs and cheaper GPUs they currently have on market competitive as well?
    That's not very incompetent... if your measure for doing a job badly is making that amount of progress, coming from absolutely nothing, I don't think you have much of any weight behind your criticism.

    It's "makeshift", btw.
     
  7. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    12,283
    Likes Received:
    4,519
    GPU:
    2080Ti @h2o
    Sorry for emotionally challanging you, thanks for posting Lisa's answer.
     
  8. Silva

    Silva Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    712
    GPU:
    Asus RX560 4G
    All of this said by a guy who owns a 1070, at least you're not using an 7700k (Yet).
    A company can't grow if no one buys their products, Nvidia fanboys made this possible. I for once, in 2013, opted to go red with my GPU and very happy about it.
    Also, after bulldozer fiasco the only thing they could have done was start from the ground up and we now have Ryzen. Designing a CPU/GPU takes years, it's not like you COD fanboys are used to games every year: it's just a mod.

    Tell that to Nvidia and all their cards that beat yours.
    Nvidia used HBM wisely: on expensive products bought for specific purposes.
    Do you think your card is better just because it has HBM? It would run the same with 8Gb of GDDR5. AMD should have pushed HBM further in the future, not now that they're so behind.
     
  9. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    7,821
    Likes Received:
    710
    GPU:
    Inno3D RTX 3090
    You realize that a every piece of HBM sold has AMD patents in it, right? And that they hold almost all the patents for the interposer. It's not as if this won't pay off.
     
  10. Prince Valiant

    Prince Valiant Master Guru

    Messages:
    728
    Likes Received:
    73
    GPU:
    EVGA GTX 1080 ti
    AMD targeting the server/business segment with their products seems like the best decision they can make. Am I wrong in thinking this?

    I think it's been discussed before but, they probably couldn't afford to split the design at this point.
     

  11. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    13,447
    Likes Received:
    2,965
    GPU:
    EVGA RTX 3080
    AMD doesn't collect royalties on HBM.

    https://www.kitguru.net/components/...ng-usage-of-hbm-and-do-not-collect-royalties/
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  12. rm082e

    rm082e Master Guru

    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    228
    GPU:
    3080 - QHD@165hz
  13. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    7,821
    Likes Received:
    710
    GPU:
    Inno3D RTX 3090
  14. Loophole35

    Loophole35 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    9,793
    Likes Received:
    1,148
    GPU:
    EVGA 1080ti SC
    Wow! You bought a $190 GPU from them 4 years ago. How cute. I bought 2 $300 GPU's from them (AMD) 6-7 years ago and a $550 GPU from them (AMD) 5 years ago. So because I choose the GPU that gave me the performance I desired (performance that AMD did not offer mind you) I cant have an opinion. So basically I should shut up according to you unless I have skin in the game? Get real. Hey why don't you go buy an Ryzen system and a 580 then you can lecture me about my buying habits.

    The fact that the first thing you look at is what GPU I use shows who the fanboy is here.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  15. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    13,447
    Likes Received:
    2,965
    GPU:
    EVGA RTX 3080
    Idk, you'd have to link me to the patent to see the specific implementation. Interposers themselves have been used prior to HBM. If it does exist the patent is related to HBM and an interposer and probably really specific language regarding it's novelty.

    Like this for example:

    https://www.google.com/patents/US20130346695

    Is insanely specific on how it's integrated.

    Should also point out that the context of that quote is in reference to on die packaging anyway. So it would seem really weird to me that AMD's response to it would be specifically for HBM and not the way it's packaged, which would obviously include the interposer.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017

  16. Silva

    Silva Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    712
    GPU:
    Asus RX560 4G
    1) I agree, as Raja said: last year they didn't had an AI learning card, low they have.

    2) I understand it's not easy, but it was a bad management decision going with HMB, delaying the card more than 12 months and leaving Nvidia to do as she pleased.

    I didn't comment on his post because I had no info on this matter.
    So my theory stands true: AMD ****ed up insisting in HBM.

    It costed 205€ to be more exact. I'm sorry if currently I'm poor and can't afford to upgrade every year.

    For reference: my first GPU ever was a 8mb ATI card (don't know the model). I still have my working Nvidia FX5200 on a P4, My FX6600 is gone, my 7600GS died, my 9800GTX was sold (sold the Intel E8400 too), my GTX460SE was sold and now I have this R9 270X. ATM I'm trying to sell this GPU to get a RX570. Am I really that of a fanboy having had 5 green cards and just 2 red?

    PS: Yes, when I can afford it you bet I'm doing a Ryzen build.
     
  17. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    13,447
    Likes Received:
    2,965
    GPU:
    EVGA RTX 3080
    We don't have access to all the information - it's easy to say in hindsight that AMD should have done something differently. Last year when Vega was announced the roadmap pegged it at early 2017.

    https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/AMDGPU.jpg

    Polaris falls where it launched, June/July 2016.. Vega falls right on the 2017 - which would indicate to me that either they said "**** it" and put Vega above 2017 because they knew it would launch sometime this year, or maybe they thought they'd have it out early 2017.

    If the latter is the case, I think it all makes sense. Like if you're AMD and it's June 2016 and your launching Polaris to cover 90% of the market and you think you can get a Vega chip to cover the top 10% by Q1 2017 - why would you spin a Vega with a GDDR controller on it? And if HBCC can read GDDR, why would you even think about designing it? I think as that time approached, it became increasingly clear that they weren't going to hit that timeframe for whatever reason.

    But the bring up on a chip that people would have liked to see in hindsight would have needed to start design mid last year. And if AMD thought they could have Vega out by Q1/Q2, why would they have designed that chip and what point would it have been too late?
     
  18. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    7,821
    Likes Received:
    710
    GPU:
    Inno3D RTX 3090
    Thanks for the interposer links. I believe that they really have HBM issues. NVIDIA using it means nothing, since the actual production required to cover those needs is miniscule compared to anything close to the mainstream market. I believe that they have ramp up issues, and that they might have expected NVIDIA to use it more, so the whole production line would be more streamlined by now.
     
  19. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    11,810
    Likes Received:
    3,366
    GPU:
    6900XT+AW@240Hz
    We have that information. Fiji without HBM would be 10~15% weaker due to memory + IMC power consumption. And Fiji did save transistors left and right thanks to HBM. + Form Factor of Graphics cards.
    If AMD went GDDR5X way, that top card would be just another Hawaii (Big, Hot, Power Hungry). And would not be that attractive.
    Stuff AMD developed alongside HBM will one day change/design shape of All-In-One computers/notebooks.

    Even today AMD can make APU with 8GB HBM2 on interposer with everything important integrated. Place that on PCB which just holds power delivery circuits and protection chips for USB/SATA/DP/...
    They can deliver entire working computer in size of MXM3.0 card. It is just question of time. I expect it to be here by 2020 as they will not release product until they believe there will be good demand for it.
     
  20. H83

    H83 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,503
    Likes Received:
    882
    GPU:
    MSI Duke GTX1080Ti
    From a business perspective AMD did the right thing. But it´s hard not to feel "shafted" with this, like suddenly gamers are becoming secondary to AMD/Nvidia...
    Not to mention AMD is giving the high end market to Nvidia in a silver plate.

    That could be all true but i doesn´t change that in the end AMD has nothing on the high end GPU market. It would be better to have a slower part with GDDR5 than to have nothing at all.
    Vega may well be the best GPU the universe has ever seen so far but that doesn´t matter if you can´t buy it...
     

Share This Page