Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Nov 7, 2022.
So when RX 7950 XT/XTX and/or 3D cache variants?
This hobby has always been filled with pompous adults that have more money than sense. Which is fine. Buy what you want. Enjoy it. That being said, this pompous attitude blinds them to big business and "regular folk" and what's good for the industry as they typically only care about what's good for them. The reality is mid-range cards make the industry thrive. A 12 year old kid trying to get into PC gaming needs something affordable with solid performance. If you lack products to bring people into the hobby you'll never have an enthusiast segment 10 years from now. One leads to the other. Consoles are $400 dollars. You can't expect someone to pay much more than that for a GPU that's just trying it out. Especially when you have other parts of a PC to pay for. You need an entry point for people that want to give it a chance.
Secondly, the 4090 is a great card. Absolutely. But as someone who is old enough to remember a time when AAA exclusives were on PC in droves it's hard to justify any high-end card these days. Sure, younger generations and I guess even some older will be fooled into being told what buzzwords they need but in reality, many of us have gamed @ 60hz/60fps for decades. I honestly...and I say this as the owner of a 4k 144hz monitor, I honestly don't care about gaming over 60fps/60hz. I like the 144hz for web surfing and just doing things on my PC outside of gaming. It's nice when I can move to 144z I suppose in games....but I play mainly single player games. Most competitive games wanting 144hz also play in low details for additional frames which then makes the 4090 pointless. So this card is just in an odd space to me. PC gaming has been held back by consoles for over 10 years and it's not stopping anytime soon. It's hard to justify spending almost $2,000 dollars and possibly melting the card to gain 144hz and a few smoother edges that are only noticeable in a digital foundry video when magnified at 3x. And ray tracing I guess, which just seems like a huge fraud right now.
What I'm saying is, there was a time a game like Battlefield 1942 was only available on PC. And it was an awesome game and you wanted to run it in highest detail to enjoy it. That justified buying whatever the best card was at the time...ti 4600? Or Unreal Tournament. Or Unreal Tournament 2003. FarCry. So many others...but these games were built for the PC and if they did get a console version it was terrible. Laughable. Everything is on such an even ground now that.....it just, you have to ask does this purchase make sense? I used to buy every video card that came out, high end. It was finally while owning the 2080 I started to realize Im buying high end for very little in regards to IQ and exclusivity. I was buying to simply have the best out of habit. And I think that goes on quite a bit. Right now, on the software side of these, strictly from a gaming perspective. I don't see enough available on PC to justify high end cards and these prices.
I can appreciate AMD not even going after the 4090. It's not necessary. They're trying to keep price lower, power lower and stay competitive in performance.
All theyre trying to do is keep their GPU division afloat.
Amazing that ppl think AMD is in this to help out gamers financially.
The casual gamers really don't care about brand new GPU, they are fine with their aging GPUs and will use them until they break, so probably they buy new GPU every 5-10 years.
Now we, the PC enthusiasts who read review and like to upgrade PC constantly, will buy 5x more GPUs than a casual gamer in a lifetime. That means despite being a minority, the PC enthusiasts take up a huge chunk of sale for AMD and Nvidia. This is why AMD and Nvidia are trying to capture the enthusiast segment with faster and more expensive hardware (mainstream GPU just aren't that interesting).
there really is nothing wrong with enthusiasts buying expensive new GPU, they are just gonna give those to 12 year old nephews or sell them at much cheaper prices after a couple of years anyways. Heck I have given lots of my old stuff to my brothers and nephews over the years.
In the end everyone win, enthusiasts who like to experience the bleeding edge get their fancy GPUs to play with, casual gamers get hand-me-down or 2nd hand GPUs.
Yes they are trying to keep the GPU division afloat by making consumers THINK they are helping them out when in reality they are just using clever and more importantly much cheaper ways of improving performance gen over gen. The same can be said for the CPU division too, only there its worked wonders since Intel have been asleep for the past 5+ years whereas Nvidia have only had minor bumps in the road.
Are you referring to FSR/DLSS?
Agreed, and considering it seems AMD still isn't yet competitive enough with RT and performance-enhancement features, I think it makes sense that they weren't trying to compete against the 4090 - they would have ended up with a very expensive gargantuan die and it still wouldn't be the indisputable winner.
Considering how they went about the chiplets, I'm sure the performance difference would be almost negligible. When it came to CPUs, the problem with chiplets came down to two things: synchronizing parallel processes, and schedulers that would swap a process between core clusters. The inter-die communication is where things really slowed down. With their GPU chiplet approach, it's a lot more streamlined and it doesn't seem like the data has to really travel far between the chiplets, so we're probably talking a pretty negligible performance hit for a major cost reduction.
I'm not happy with these kinds of prices. However, Jensen is not a fool. He's the person who led Nvidia to become a huge industry giant. If he judges these prices are financially viable, unfortunately they likely are. He obviously made a mistake with 4080 12GB, but to be realistic, such a mistake won't cost him or Nvidia much. It's just a sad fact that the gaming hardware prices are getting more and more expensive. I haven't seen global PC gaming related statistics, so I can't say if gaming hardware sales are dropping either unit or value wise. The value is important for hardware manufacturers because if they can make the same profit with less units, they are happy. The unit number would be more important for others because less units means less sales for peripherals and such, and of course game studios aren't happy if the number of gamers is dropping, even if they spend more money in their PCs. They aren't still going to buy any more games. Game prices have actually been rising quite slowly, which would suggest the number of gamers is increasing. If high graphics card prices reduce the number of gamers, then I suppose there's more pressure on game prices themselves.
Neither. I am referring to going MCM design, reorganising the shaders, using dual issue shaders, and going for reasonable power targets which requires a rethink of their design.
Perhaps I'm getting old but lately found gaming in general boring and mundane, no new games that really excite me just seems like they run out of ideas.
Honestly want to see those with 3070+ perf but yes.
The big one nobody is talking about because it's a bit deep is that the chiplets are connected InFO(Integrated Fan-Out). This makes the GPU and memory controller chiplet overlap a bit on the edges and they are connected with micro bumps. This reduces power consumption that you typical lose going off chip by a decent amount(still have loses). Thats one of the things with Ryzen you have a decent amount of power going to the Infinity Fabric which is why they go monolithic SoC/APU's on the laptop chips. Anyhow this advanced packaging is going to be a big deal because it's really cheap, efficient, and allows for bigger dies to be made without hitting the reticle limit due to offloading all that space for controllers/memory. AMD could make a 4090 killer if they wanted because the main GPU die would only need to be about 500mm2. I could see them doing that later next year or maybe with RDNA4.
If it's a matter of price per performance, then price will always move up.
They canned 4080 12GB because of the "bad naming" of having 2 cards with the same name but not the same GPU & so not the same performance. At best it will became a 4070Ti, at worst a 4070.
Still here is the problem :
4090 1600$, okay why not. I never really cared about the top tier nvidia in the 90.
4080 1200$, not okay. 3080 official MSRP was around 600$ or something like that. Price doubling is not okay even if performance double. That would mean if the 5080 double the performance in 2 years, they should release it at 2400$
The formerly 4080 12GB was at 900$, it can only become a 4070 series now, which would again double or nearly double the 3070 MSRP ?
AMD is in the same trouble for me. (despiste people acclaiming them for "lower price")
The 7900 XTX is a 4080 competitor, okay. But previous gen the 6800XT was the 3080 competitor, it had a lower MSRP too (in the 600-650$ i think ?). AMD goes bad naming scheme to keep their margin safe and try to shine against the competitor higher price.
Then the 7900XT only shot would be a challenger against the "4080 12GB" aka the 4070 series. Which was in the previous gen the 6800 ballpark, again MSRP way above that one.
Either nVidia or AMD, they bring more performance with this gen, but they killed it by increasing their price HUGELY. Between 50% to 100% increase in price.
Ps : Of course we still have to wait for the performance of both AMD cards and the 4080 for nVidia. But the price are completly wrong compared to previous generation.
Ps² : It is just my opinion, but i think it is a fair one. Neither of the GPU makers is innocent. Yes they got cost increase, but i don't think it is that huge as what we're seeing in end user price.
Wondered this about myself, feel the same way.
Depends what you're playing, i got a list of more than 50 games in the steam wishlist that are waiting a complete PC change or a price drop 50-90% to buy.
Examples : Read Dead Redemption II, Final Fantasy I-VI remaster (never played the original), Chrono Cross (played the Chrono Trigger on a emulator long ago ^^' ), Twelve Minutes, Deliver Us The Moon, The 2 newest entries of doom (kinda a remake i guess ?), Half-Life : Alyx (VR kit required), Walking Dead Saints & Sinners (VR kit required), Mafia definitive edition (seems like a very nice remake or remaster of the first entry), Horizon Zero Dawn, God of War, Uncharted legacy, the 2 spiderman, Sekiro, Dragon Ball kakarot, baldur's gate 3 (i'll wait for them to properly finish the game), Deathloop
Recently bought : Beyond a Steel Sky, Middle Earth shadow of war, Control, Metro Exodus, Cyberpunk 2077
Recently played "It Takes Two" with a friend, terrible coop experience and nice story. Done "A way out" with the same friend last september. Intended to try "Degrees of Separation" next year.
And a couple of multiplayers that will be playable for a long time because they keep adding/updating thing : Squad, Hell Let Loose, ArmA series (Reforger now but the 4th entry will be the 2000h+ games for a decade of gaming on it)
The MSI Suprim liquid should fit your case, no?
Nvidia's xx70 tier card has been the most appealing product for enthusiastic gamers for a long time, but frankly even for 700 €, which would be a major price increase compared to last gen, with a performance of RTX 3090, I think RTX 4070 will not appeal to many. We have reached the point where prices relative to income and increased life expenses are truly too high, which means a waiting game will begin; this time not for stock to supply, but prices to fall. There is a slim hope that RX 7700 would be a considerable and reasonable upgrade for many like me, but in today's light I expect such to cost about 500 € (in Finland), and the XT variant 600 €. Cheaper card RTX 4060 will probably be gimped somehow, but many of those who have GTX 1060 level of a card will likely buy such anyhow, because they simply need something faster right now.
Keep your hopes attained I'd say and prepare for more slight disappointments in this market. :/
Eventually prices will fall and this will not become another lost generation.
well if price has any thing to say i gess AMD will win this.
Just seen price of 4080 16GB in Denmark
1976,09 Eur !!
think ill pick the 7900 series
Considering how the prices for the RX 6000 series was up till recently here in ol' DK, then I hope it'll be different. For some reason they were alway much, much more expensive than the nVidia counterpart - so why would anyone ever buy one?
The 6600 and 6650 XT though have become quite the value proposition now - making all kinds of sense for new builds.
lol well yeah it is the only 4090 i like and i don't like the thought of a $200 block on top of $1500
but it is well over spec for my needs as i don;t play any RT games so for a little more than half the price the 7900xt looks great to me