QD-OLED televisions will be introduced by Samsung and Sony.

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Nov 18, 2021.

  1. tunejunky

    tunejunky Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,106
    Likes Received:
    1,695
    GPU:
    RX6900XT, 2070
    back on topic... as discussed Samsung's "OLED" is not equal to LG's OLED, it's a work-around at a lower cost of manufacture.
    technically, i find it very interesting and a "tip-of-the-hat" to the Sammy engineer who first brought this up.
    i'm very curious about what the energy level in the QDs is before the excitation state and whether or not that it's fully beyond perception because i'm uncertain whether or not things i've seen are artefacts or not.
    also way-to-go Samsung for rescuing your orphan child of OLED technology (of course, after none of the metaphorical spaghetti on the wall has stuck otherwise).
    it isn't to the full spectrum standard of LG OLED, but if the QDs work well enough to lure Sony (currently using LG OLED)
    i'll look at it. it could also be equally true that this is for a lower price point than the Sony LG panel with greater margin
     
  2. user1

    user1 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,345
    Likes Received:
    1,015
    GPU:
    hd 6870
    qd-oled looks to be a straight forward improvement, the quantum dots are applied as a filter layer, this could be used to reduce or eliminate the reliance on certain oled compounds that may be more unstable, improving the lifespan of such displays at least in theory, could also be used to improve the color gamut of such displays too though I doubt there would be much point.

    Im pretty sure samsung didn't invest as much into oled, mainly because its basically a dead end technology, the brighter you make them , the shorter they last, and burn-in will pretty much never be solvable completely for a reasonable cost anyway. samsung put more money on the quantum dot stuff from the beginning.
     
  3. tunejunky

    tunejunky Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,106
    Likes Received:
    1,695
    GPU:
    RX6900XT, 2070

    so many errors...
    Samsung invested way more in OLED than qd, FACT.
    OLED is NOT a "dead end" AND they do not need to be as "bright" because they have black. "brightness" is a false value driven by false contrast ratios that never started with black.
    all filter layers have their own effect, which affects the end result (especially that "brightness" you crave) and may introduce their own artefacts.
    Color Gamuts are intrinsically superior in (LG's) OLED, because they have black AND because the (LG) panels are full spectrum panels.
    All TV's die at some point and as an owner of a pixel perfect 10 y/o OLED (without "burn-in") i can say if and when my set dies it will have lead a long and productive life - AND it's lasted longer than my old Sony XBR (HD crt) from the nineties.
     
  4. user1

    user1 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,345
    Likes Received:
    1,015
    GPU:
    hd 6870
    samsung has put more money into qd than oled IMO (strictly for research anyway), its hard to quantify because you can't really separate it from their other r&d since its mixed with lcd and oled , but is clear they have a heavy bias toward quantum dot https://pid.samsungdisplay.com/en/learning-center/blog/qled-vs-oled-tv-display-technology , samsung doesn't even sell oled tvs , they pretty much only use oled for phones/tablets , qd filter layers aren't to be confused with other types of filters, its more similar to a phosphor coating in its function(charging then re-emitting),

    I don't think that oled is a "bad" technology , but it does have short comings, some applications it is ill suited for, things like 24/7 operation. displays aren't just for tvs that are on for ~4-6 hours a day, burn-in can be mitigated , but it doesn't change the fact that other display technologies like lcd, essentially do not suffer from that problem at all. its mainly the blue diodes that are the problem, they just kinda suck(bad efficiency,short lifespan ect).

    when I say "dead-end" That is assuming self-emissive quantum dot makes it to market on schedule at the predicted cost ( and people actually buy them ), oled would be gone with-in 10-15 years, since hypothetically it offers no advantages over qned/qled , it won't even be cheaper to make.
     
    HandR likes this.

  5. JamesSneed

    JamesSneed Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    934
    GPU:
    GTX 1070
    Yeah they try to compensate on the LCD monitors/TV's by making things so ungodly bright. Its because the black are so bad so to compensate they make things so freaking bright. Don't need those shenanigan's on OLED's. Next year should be a great year for TV's I'm not sure how much will filter into monitors. Samsung's Quantum Dot Nanorod LED tech should fix the burn in issue and get brighter than OLED's while having all the benefits of OLED. That will be the type of thing to start using HDR on for a monitor. Probably 2 years out for monitors.
     
    tunejunky likes this.
  6. tunejunky

    tunejunky Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,106
    Likes Received:
    1,695
    GPU:
    RX6900XT, 2070

    Samsung invested in OLED technology at the same time with the same resources as LG.
    they've spent years and well over $100m (just for the fab) long before the idea of quantum dots.
    Samsung is a company whose scale goes beyond what we're used to in the west (or east) as they would be considered a monopoly in the US or EU with their vertical integration. they have a world class research park as does LG.

    i'm not slamming Samsung in any way. but their OLED process was fatally flawed and didn't and can't make a full spectrum OLED panel.
    enter the Quantum Dots... a very, very clever reimagining of the phosphors that used to line CRT monitors.
    i'm all for them at the lower price point of IPS where they're necessary to approach certain color gamuts.
    i'm very curious about the application on an OLED panel.

    but people have made faulty assumptions (not you in particular) that panel life and alleged "burn-in" would somehow be different when that's not the case. the semi-chromatic OLED of Samsung would be just as prone to those overstated issues and there would also be an issue of visual comfort as the higher frequencies (blues/violets/UV) are triggered by an overdriven panel just like CRTs which have a pronounced UV problem.
     
  7. JamesSneed

    JamesSneed Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    934
    GPU:
    GTX 1070
    No arguments here. Samsung does make the best anti glare of any TV manufactures so I am hopeful QNED makes a better bright room TV than what's on the market today. I love the Sony master 48 inch OLED but its only dark room viewing in my house. The Non-organic Quantum Nano Emitting Diodes Samsung are using are suspected to not suffer from image retention / burn as much which honestly is already almost a non-issue with OLEDs today. I'm more excited that they are claiming decently higher brightness than todays OLED's.
     
  8. user1

    user1 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,345
    Likes Received:
    1,015
    GPU:
    hd 6870
    I still disagree about the amount of R&D, you can't use numbers for the production plants, because there are no strictly qned/qled facilities yet and only just in the last year or 2 have they made any investments into mass production, its just barely out of the research stage.

    Also my "assumptions" are not faulty, the blue oleds are inherently more unstable replacing them with a more stable compound and using quantum dots to compensate for the shifted wavelength is a viable strategy to get better panel lifespans(even if we assume burn-in is already "fixed", its still means brighter for longer) , Though upon reading this https://www.oled-a.org/samsung-expe...alternative-for-blue-oled-material_31520.html , it looks like they might just replace the blue oleds with blue qleds ,

    edit:
    it basically looks like the qd-oled is basically just a temporary stopgap, I would definitely be worried about lifespan since it relies on blue oleds as the light source.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  9. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    4,953
    Likes Received:
    1,473
    GPU:
    RTX 3060 12GB
    Mildly agree. What R&D does one need for this tech? It doesn't appear any more complex than slapping two well known and researched pieces of tech together. OLED back-lighting, with an LCD layer, and a colour filter to spread the diffusion of light, making the viewing angles wide and the backlit emissive layer punchy and pixel-level.

    I think the research was shorter than is needed for a brand new piece of display tech.
     
  10. user1

    user1 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,345
    Likes Received:
    1,015
    GPU:
    hd 6870
    while not quite as old as oled(~1960s), quantum dots(~1970-80s) require some pretty advanced chemistry, physics , and manufacturing techniques, if it was easy we would have seen it long ago, much like oled. both ideas/principles have been researched for 40+ years at this point, though im not sure they are directly comparable , since there are far more applications where quantum dots are useful beyond led use.

    edit as far as led use, I found this patent from samsung from 2004 https://patents.google.com/patent/US20090039764A1/en
    so this has been in the works for quite some time.
    a samsung patent for an oled is a little earlier from 2001-2002
    https://patents.google.com/patent/US6902834B2/en?assignee=OLED+samsung&page=1

    while this isn't perfect, I think its fair to say that samsung has been researching qled/qned for a longer period of time without a return on its investment than oled, that much I can say with relative confidence.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021

  11. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    4,953
    Likes Received:
    1,473
    GPU:
    RTX 3060 12GB
    I think the best tech was Plasma for so long, but my god the manufacturing costs and large scale viability for that tech was just too much for the market to stomach. I still got my old Panny Plasma for like 12 years ago, still excellent, and the reason I mention Plasma is, I think it helped forward the current tech for OLED, LED, MiniLED, MicroLED, QD and now this mixup of tech.

    That might be stating the obvious; that Plasma was its own worst competition and priced itself out of the market years ago.
     
  12. user1

    user1 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,345
    Likes Received:
    1,015
    GPU:
    hd 6870
    I liked plasma too, however its biggest issue was pixel density, it just doesn't scale down well at all. I think it probably could've continued to compete at the high end if it didin't fall behind on that front, after all it did survive the onslaught of cheap lcds for about 10 years before they stopped making them,
     
    tunejunky likes this.
  13. metagamer

    metagamer Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,388
    Likes Received:
    1,019
    GPU:
    Palit GameRock 2080
    G9 user here, HDR is shocking. I never use it. Local dimming is also shocking. G9 Neo has 2k+ local dimming zones, still bad. Nowhere near as good as OLED.

    OLED in Dolby Vision is out of this world. Period. I'm not sure why you have HDR (or DV) associated with "crazy bright".

    HDR/DV is all about dynamic range, not necessarily about being as bright as possible.
     
    tunejunky likes this.
  14. tunejunky

    tunejunky Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,106
    Likes Received:
    1,695
    GPU:
    RX6900XT, 2070
    to User1:
    i can use numbers from production facilities because you are postulating a "chicken and egg" argument.

    OLED's didn't appear out of the head of Zeus.
    test fabs had to be built and at great expense (my greater than $100m). Samsung didn't have the insights that LG did re:OLED but that wasn't known at the time, what was known is the great promise for per pixel illumination at a high pitch (small diameter of pixel).
    my $100 million number is very conservative considering they were simultaneously working on large panels (easier) and phone/tablet screens (much harder). then there's the man-hours spent (wasted) trying to make their OLED full spectrum which was a period over a decade.

    reading white papers is all well and good, in fact i encourage it. but, as in life context is king.
     
  15. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    4,953
    Likes Received:
    1,473
    GPU:
    RTX 3060 12GB
    Precisely: Plasma was sooooo good, that manufacturers spent all this money on R&D to try and beat it.

    If it didn't exist, OLED would not have been on the market, and paradoxically, QD.
     

  16. user1

    user1 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,345
    Likes Received:
    1,015
    GPU:
    hd 6870
    the thing is you see stuff like this https://www.anandtech.com/show/14989/samsung-to-invest-11-billion-in-qdoled-panel-production, and its really hard to say how much of that is oled and how much is qled/qned/quantum dot. . The biggest number I could find on any single investment on oled production from samsung was 6 billion usd, this is less than the inital investment into qd-oled production. I remind that it is likely that these new fabs will be converted to qled/qned given what we know about their qd-oleds and their qled/qned designs. I suspect that the reason samsung is dropping so much cash on this when they already have so much invested in oled , is because they probably want to replace lcd production as well, something that oled did not ever do.

    make of that what you will I guess.
     
  17. Skylinestar

    Skylinestar Active Member

    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    15
    GPU:
    NVIDIA GTX 1070
    Can they make something smaller to be used as a desktop monitor? My first OLED is the Sony HMZ-T2 headset that is released about a decade ago. Today, I'm still waiting for that perfect gaming monitor with deep blacks. No, I don't need more brightness. Any Dell Ultrasharp displays already blinded me with 75 contrast and 25 brightness setting. I don't need 4K either because I'm just aiming 120fps on 1440p.
     
  18. nicugoalkeper

    nicugoalkeper Master Guru

    Messages:
    912
    Likes Received:
    44
    GPU:
    ASUS GTX 1060 DUAL OC 6GB
    I think here we are missing 2 point:
    1. Samsung wants/needs a panel tech that is nomber 1 so that they can be 1.
    2. Maybe Samsung can't make good OLED panels like LG just because LG has some pantent's that Samsung R&D can't go around them. So the came up whit other options...
     
  19. DeskStar

    DeskStar Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,307
    Likes Received:
    229
    GPU:
    EVGA 3080Ti/3090FTW
    Yeah. Nothing at all like the vision of the director.

    And man. HDR must be the biggest ruse since the inception of a government by the people....

    I mean it's that bad and all..... Nothing at all makes HDR as good as standard definition.... No implementation of it at all (D. Vision, HGL and others) allows for creative visions to be better realized over the standard versions.

    One might need to adjust their prescription for them specs in my opinion.

    Not sure where this bombshell of information is hiding regarding movies and the poor quality of any and all HDR across the board.

    Maybe a video game being rendered having issues with HDR I could see because that's what's happening.

    Maybe you shouldn't watch Dolby Vision content on a setup that doesn't support it. It only gives you crushed HDR instead. Just an option if it is the way you roll.
     
  20. DeskStar

    DeskStar Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,307
    Likes Received:
    229
    GPU:
    EVGA 3080Ti/3090FTW
    I'd love to get my hands on a 5120x1440 120+Hz OLED monitor!!

    My viotek is great and all, but that would just be the icing on my cake.
     

Share This Page