[Q&A] Legacy cards drivers && OS issues

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Catalyst Drivers Section' started by mysteriously, Sep 30, 2015.

  1. mysteriously

    mysteriously Master Guru

    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti 4GB
    Hello,

    I know there were hundreds (if not thousands) threads like this. Just let this one stay, please. Reasons of thread existing may (or may not) clear up some later. Let me ask some questions and put them all in one place.

    What is exactly the problem of legacy cards? 15.8 seems to support many legacy cards like 'ATI Radeon HD 2350' in both Win7 & Win10 inf.
    So, drivers just don't install, don't support some features like DXVA, overall performance is crappy or there is some other problem?

    edit@: Thanks for all replies in advance
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  2. FunkyMike

    FunkyMike Master Guru

    Messages:
    534
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    ATI 6850m /Intel HD3000
    The inf for Win 10 doesn't even link the driver to the legacy cards. It only installs the CCC. Will have to double check but there was definitely a driver like that posted here which was called a "legacy" driver.
     
  3. AlleyViper

    AlleyViper Master Guru

    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    6
    GPU:
    MSI RX480 GX 8GB
    Every 15.20x driver that I've tried that has an *.inf with HD2-4K cards can be "installed", but my legacy card will use instead the MS Basic Display Driver under the hood. No ATI files are loaded.

    I wish for every post claiming "it supports legacy cards" just by looking at the *.inf, the same users would actually even try them on such scenarios.

    The latest driver that Windows 10 installs on the same HD4890 is 01/13/2015, 8.970.100.9001 WHQL without any CCC. This is actually an ancient driver, based on the same 12.x branch branch as any other legacy driver (version is just slight higher than the legacy 13.1 8.970.100.7000), right before AMD cut these cards from newer drivers.

    There's a possibility to match them with either 13.1 or 13.4 CCC, but there's a long list of annoying problems. No CCC profiles, the second GPU remaining at high clocks and voltage whilst not in use (happens since 12.2 IIRC), the CCC randomly causing .net framework errors when logging out in W8.1 or W10, video quality options not working with .h264 video or not even present on 13.9 or 13.4b CCCs.

    For some of these reasons, people are still using old drivers with lots of unresolved problems or resorting to moded/frankenstein versions of them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  4. LIGuitar77

    LIGuitar77 Master Guru

    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    4
    GPU:
    ASUS 7790 2GB OC
    I use this driver on my Acer Aspire One netbook with HD 4200 series for now. I forget if I modded it by hand or not, but it is working greatly. x86 7 SP1

    DriverVer=08/03/2015, 15.200.1062.1004

    for

    PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9712&CC_0300


    Code:
    ;-----------------------------------------------
    ;----------1508071536-15.20.1062.1004-150803a1-187668C
    ; AMD display information file
    ;
    ; Installation INF for the AMD display driver.
    ; Copyright(C) AMD 2007-2015
    ;-----------------------------------------------
    ; PX - PX Proxy mode
    ; PR - PX Proxy Ready
    
    [Version]
    Signature="$Windows NT$"
    Provider=%ATI%
    ClassGUID={4D36E968-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}
    Class=Display
    DriverVer=08/03/2015, 15.200.1062.1004
    ;;LayoutFile=layout.inf
    CatalogFile=CW187668.CAT
    
    [SignatureAttributes]
    atiumdva.dll=SignatureAttributes.PETrust
    atiumdag.dll=SignatureAttributes.PETrust
    amdhcp32.dll=SignatureAttributes.PETrust
    
    [SignatureAttributes.PETrust]
    PETrust=true
    
    [DestinationDirs]
    DefaultDestDir  = 11
    R300.OGL        = 10  ; Windows
    R300.Miniport   = 12  ; drivers
    R300.Display    = 11  ; system32
    R300.DXX        = 11  ; system32
    R300.OD		= 11  ; system32
    R300.Mppxy      = 12  ; drivers
    Coinstaller_CopyFiles = 11
    R300.ProxyM	= 12  ; drivers
    R300.ProxyU	= 11  ; system32
    R300.Samu	= 11  ; system32
    r300.CFNext	= 11
    R300.VCE	= 11  ;system32
    R300.Miniport_PA = 12  ; drivers
    R300.Display_PA = 11  ; system32
    R300.OpenCL      = 11  ; system32
    R300.Kaveri	= 11  ; system32
    R300.AMDKMPFD	= 24, Program Files\AMD\amdkmpfd
    R300.MFTENC     = 16427,ATI Technologies\Multimedia
    R300.MFTDEC     = 16427,ATI Technologies\Multimedia
    R300.MFTWIC      = 16427,ATI Technologies\Multimedia
    R300.MFTMJPEG    = 16427,ATI Technologies\Multimedia
    R300.Carrizo    = 11  ; system32
    
    [ControlFlags]
    ExcludeFromSelect=*
    ;
    ; Driver information
    ;
    
    [Manufacturer]
    %ATI% = ATI.Mfg, NTx86.6.1
    
    [ATI.Mfg.NTx86.6.1]
    
    
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015

  5. AlleyViper

    AlleyViper Master Guru

    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    6
    GPU:
    MSI RX480 GX 8GB
    15.200.1062.1004 should be regular 15.7.1. What are your detected 2d, d3d and ocl driver versions on CCC? Thanks.
     
  6. mysteriously

    mysteriously Master Guru

    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti 4GB
    Thanks for all replies in advance.

    Focusing and talking closer look on Win7 first will be easier for now, I think. Sure, if you have some info about Win10, please post it as well.

    What do you mean exactly by saying 'installed'? Are drivers files copied to system and program files paths?
    In 15.8 drivers legacy sections look like this:
    Code:
    [ati2mtag_Legacy]
    FeatureScore=E6
    ;
    [ati2mtag_Legacy.Services]
    AddService = ,0x00000002 ; no value for the service name
    so this explains why nothing is really installed.

    :( Unfortunately I don't have access to any of such 'legacy' cards. This really complicates things...

    Ok, so it is old driver, without optimizations for newer games etc. CCC is additional, I personally don't install it, it consumes some CPU resources for me even when works in background. Sure, I understand some people may find it useful. The driver itself is more important, isn't it? :)
    What exactly has been cut of? Any official AMD announcement?

    Hmm, mixed drivers designed to fail ;) Multi GPU on 'home-made' drivers :D

    This. It would be nice to share info from people who use unmodified (original AMD's) old drivers on legacy cards. Creating list of issues confirmed as caused by original old drivers would be very useful.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  7. AlleyViper

    AlleyViper Master Guru

    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    6
    GPU:
    MSI RX480 GX 8GB
    Unfortunately I only have a HD4890 to test under W10 x64, and if bothered to, also a HD4200 on the 890GX. No older OS installed.

    I wrote "installed" in a ironic way. It meant that if you point device manager to the *.inf, only the card name in device manager changes, and no drivers are loaded.

    Simply using the latest W10 WU driver without CCC leaves you without CF or OpenCL (you must dig the AMD APP SKD from an older set). Not to mention if you want CCC to change video quality settings to make use of de-noise (etc) in a light way without more software involved, same to OC the card, change or make *.exe specific profiles (not to mention that it's really needed under CF).

    Yes, the driver is more important, but the problem is that AMD left many problems unsolved on the legacy drivers, and even created many others in their last versions.

    If you look for kevsamiga1974's posts on his reloaded driver packs, you'll find those listed that are still present on the driver that WU pushes for W10, or any of the last legacy drivers that AMD launched. By far, the most affected are CF users.

    For my use, either the last WU driver with or without CCC (older version, even if it crashes on log out sometimes in >W8), or the 13.1 (problematic to install since 8.1) or 13.4b legacy driver (no video quality controls) is acceptable as they are essentially the same driver. But only because I don't have to deal with their single card issues (hdmi sound, green screen on video etc) that others might face.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  8. mysteriously

    mysteriously Master Guru

    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti 4GB
    Yes, legacy sections on newer driver versions are pretty much empty, so nothing has been installed.

    Well, I was thinking about installing original new drivers like 15.8 on legacy cards, no matter of what will happen after installation. That's why old drivers issues list would be welcome. Also some game benchmark. Tomb Raider seems to be good. Regarding to this link http://support.amd.com/en-us/download/desktop/legacy?product=legacy2&os=Windows 7 - 64 latest original legacy driver is 13.9. Tomb Raider for PCs has been released in 2014, so 13.9 are most likely unoptimized for the game.

    Additional stuff you mentioned... hmm, hard to predict.

    Ok, I found it http://forums.guru3d.com/search.php?searchid=7230142

    Have you tried playing with newer than original drivers' inf files?
     
  9. AlleyViper

    AlleyViper Master Guru

    Messages:
    342
    Likes Received:
    6
    GPU:
    MSI RX480 GX 8GB
    That 13.9 driver for W7 can be forced to install correctly under W10 (or 8.1) if you set compatibility to W7 for the setup. Else, you might have trouble with an empty CCC that needs to be reinstalled or installed over a previous working version (registry problem maybe, happens right after a complete DDU uninstall), but even then when installed correctly, I remember that it has some messed up CCC pages for display settings. That's why I prefer 13.1 or 13.4b on W8.1 or W10. Anyway, differences between all these drivers are next to none.

    I've never tried to mod the *.inf on these last 15.200x drivers, but I guess it's a waste of time. 3 years ago when the two branches split in regular >hd5000 releases and legacy, others immediately tried to change the regular drivers *.inf without success. Support for those DX10.1 cards seems completely abandoned under newer drivers, no mather what you do to the *.inf. If you check the FLEM modder, it's made to add those files needed to support legacy cards from an older driver.

    Probaly non GCN DX11 cards will follow next, if AMD keeps this stance for older cards.

    The good thing, is that I've never had any game breaking experience with legacy drivers on later titles that support DX10 cards (then again, things are easier without CF). Unlike my 7870 with some modern titles that AMD doesn't care about.
    IMHO, if they just added a CCC on their W10 WU driver or even solved a couple of things like CF clocks it would be great, so users of these cards could have a better experience. 980G chipsets with HD4250 ain't that old (2011) and still depend on them, even if the last discrete desktop cards are 2009 material.

    One problem, is that sometimes games check for the Catalyst package version and might enforce something that doesn't exist for these cards, even if they support DX10. IIRC I remember one game that asked for Cat. 13.9 without distinction, when officially it was a W7 driver only for legacy cards. But even then, you can fake it in registry.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015
  10. mysteriously

    mysteriously Master Guru

    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti 4GB
    I wonder if there is anyone who would like to try installing newer driver like 15.8 beta for 'legacy' cards on Win7. Some game benchmark on old vs newer driver. Playing with different C7*.infs in 'Disable driver signature enforcement' mode. Just the modified inf, games performance check, report DXVA status, nothing else
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015

  11. vejn

    vejn Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    MSI 7870 TF3
    Modifying my mobility 4570 didn't do any additional hardware accleration and it didn't fix opengl issues in software. The best way to wait until AMD release official legacy driver.
     
  12. TheDukeSD

    TheDukeSD Member Guru

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    3
    GPU:
    MSI GT 1030 2GH OC
    Doubt there will ever be a new legacy driver, last one is at least 2 years old.

    L.E.: https://community.amd.com/docs/DOC-1311

    From my point of view win 7 and vista as long as both will still receive updates are a better option than win 8/8.1 or win 10 for legacy hardware, mostly because you have more drivers to play with...
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  13. densou

    densou Member Guru

    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    GTX 1060 ITX 3GB
    not really DukeSD, on win7, using any HD4000 with ALL legacy drivers from 2011 onwards +IE11 installed -> DXVA broken.

    Dunno how things are on 8/8.1 and 10....
     
  14. TheDukeSD

    TheDukeSD Member Guru

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    3
    GPU:
    MSI GT 1030 2GH OC
    i don't use ie11 because one of the kb that is required to install ie11 (it's silent installed) is changing some dx files and the changes affect badly performance no matter what driver i use (applies to my hd 4350, hd 4650, hd 5670 and hd 7750)

    i prefer to use firefox (i don't like Chromium based browsers)

    in win 10 maybe you have 1 driver that might somehow work, in win 8/8.1 you have like 2-3 but have more problems than pre 11.12/12.1 drivers (ofc you can mod drivers, disable driver signature check or signed them yourself if you can but in the end you are using a driver that has not been tested with that os/coded with that os in mind and you are the one testing it, it can make things better but it can make things worst)

    a newer os will not magicaly fix bugs in drivers, it will probably expose more bugs...

    amd is unable to release proper drivers for curent gpu generation, doubt they will spare some resources to fix the problems with legacy hardware

    flash videos 1080p @ 60fps are a no go with my hd 4350/4650 no matter what drivers i use, also my hd 5670 has the same problem (i stoped at 14.12 so i have no clue if they fixed it in 15.x drivers), might happen with entire dxva, i only saw this happening with flash (youtube, hitbox)
    yes i can disable hardware acceleration but an athlon x2 4000+ won't be able to handle 1080p @ 60fps...
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2015
  15. kevsamiga1974

    kevsamiga1974 Master Guru

    Messages:
    881
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    EVGA GTX 580 SC
    The legacy wizard extraordinaire has spoken...

    The pre-requisite for installing IE 11 ( or 10) that breaks things in conjunction with AMD legacy drivers with Windows 7 on the 4K series is KB2670838.

    You would be right to not upgrade past IE9 for using legacy drivers on a 4K card.

    It copies specific Windows 8 graphics driver files to a Windows 7 system.

    Another thing is afterwards the stalker DX10 games will now crash upon startup whereas they didn't before installing that update. More DX10 games might also be prone to crashing with that update and IE10/11 installed and legacy multigpu systems. Although DX9 stuff remains unnaffected. This is why back then it took me months to track the root of this one down because not everything crashed, only the DX10/11 stuff.

    IE 10/11 will now also endure AppHangB1 errors in conjunction with various legacy drivers. Typing text will be like treacle sometimes in IE.

    And the DXVA issue already indicated above and god knows what else is borked.

    I did find a workaround years ago to actually still get IE 11 or 10 installed and circumvent the problems by saving these affected files that KB2670838 overwrite prior to the update, installing KB2670838 and then copying ONE affected file back. IIRC it was only ONE file doing all the damage, and IE10/11 will work EVEN IF this file is the old version. There are about 4 files replaced need to lookup the KB article.

    Because the choice for me back then was I *either* have the crashes and hangs with Windows 7 x64 and your 4K series multigpu card, or you don't have IE 10/11 at all. So I girded my loins to look for a workaround, and replacing just one of these files with the old version which needs to be saved before applying KB2670838 and then copying back does the trick.

    (IIRC it was only *one* of the files that causes all the problems listed above, but I don't remember which one since it's years since I touched any of this stuff) You will have to experiment yourself to find out which one it actually is, but I already did the legwork for you years ago.

    Apparently there was supposed to be a hotfix for these issues KB2834140, but M$ claimed the issue only affects laptop IGP's, it doesn't !

    It affects Radeon 4000 series discrete cards as well. I know becuse I tested this thing extensively way back in times of old. :)

    EDIT Notes in bold

    Well found at least *some* of my saved notes scattered around over several HD's in various states for the benefit of all till Dellon the mellon arrived with his dog and pony show :

    If you look in the System32 directory there will be these files

    d3d9.dll
    d3d10.dll
    d3d10_1.dll
    d3d10_1core.dll
    d3d10level9.dll
    d3d10warp.dll
    d3d11.dll

    The platform update replaces these files dated 2009/2010 with later versions from 2013/2014.

    Stalker COP repeatedly crashes with the faulting module d3d11.dll (which doesn't crash with the earlier version)

    Also IE10/11 repeatedly hangs with apphangb1 errors depending on ATI driver installed

    This occurs even if DirectX SDK is fully updated and the game is patched.

    Ah yes, the EVIL UPDATE that brings back DirectDraw that is required by IE11. It's not just AMD/ATi cards that are mostly affected. I'm pretty sure it affects everyone. I had a GTX 570 at the time, and I'm now on GTX 780s.

    This update breaks any DirectX 10/10.1 game I try to play with this update using both cards. Other anomalies occurred for me like flashing window frames and menu bars, to render oddities in Firefox, to blue screens while playing any kind of video.

    KB2834140 only fixes a specific error with Intel graphics.

    It does not resolve any outstanding issues for those using discrete graphics cards.


    * oh, and 12.1 is the last driver to support supertiling under DX9 and 4000 series anyway. Later ones are broken as something got changed for the 7K series in 12.2. (I need supertiling/SuperAA forced by MVPU for oblivion because it's slower in multigpu than single, may as well use SuperAA, and yes my 4870x2 still works in 2015)

    * So based on what I found by the notes indicated above, you need to save the d3d11.dll pre IE10/KB2670838 and put it back after IE10/11 is installed to fix the silly messy errors while still having IE10/11 working, your games, and possibly your DXVA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015

  16. densou

    densou Member Guru

    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    GTX 1060 ITX 3GB
    heh and think how good handle that my netbook (amd v105 [single core!] + HD4225) :wanker:

    kevsamiga, would you rather suggest to migrate to some linux distro for gettin' HW acceleration fully working and no usability lag? (i've read, probably on phoronix, that fglrx finally supports it on HD4000 series!)
     
  17. Tiago Costa

    Tiago Costa Member

    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    Mobility Radeon 5650/4250
  18. mysteriously

    mysteriously Master Guru

    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti 4GB
    Useful post for modifying AMD drivers .inf with 6000 series APUs for Windows 10 as an example
    http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=5174462&postcount=92
    I wonder if HD4000 and older legacy cards can install modified drivers using 2nd mod way.

    C7*.inf - Win7
    C0*.inf - Win10
    CU*.inf - Win8.1

    Maybe I'll make step-by-step tutorial some day :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2015
  19. TheDukeSD

    TheDukeSD Member Guru

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    3
    GPU:
    MSI GT 1030 2GH OC
    Just modding the .inf will do nothing, the code for legacy cards got removed (or at least there is a check that doesn't allow it to run).

    If Win 10 doesn't provide a working driver for legacy cards well the best bet is to mod the last driver for win 8 and sign it... If this doesn't work bad luck. Those cards don't even have dx11 support, I don't really see the point of upgrading to Win 10. I understand that some of those cards are still powerfull enough and you don't need to upgrade, but with amd dropping the support for them 3 years ago there isn't much that can be done...

    I have no plans to move to Win 10, been a couple of years since I keep look if there is a viable way for me to move to Linux, in the last year I haven't bought games that don't have native Linux client. I will probably move to Linux next year after Ubuntu 16.04 release. Win 7 was actually the last compromise I made, I actually hate win 7.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015
  20. mysteriously

    mysteriously Master Guru

    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    NVIDIA GTX 1050Ti 4GB
    Well, but none of you have access to source code, do you? So how do you know? Maybe faking card model/ID/strings could bypass this. I just don't believe that it is impossible to install any newer driver. Nobody gave any proof of trying = nobody tried.
    It's same BS like saying that driver does not get any performance optimizations for cards older than GCN...

    IMHO too many changes in between 8.1 and 10. It's not like Vista vs 7.

    Sure, even if some1 mod them and install on Win10, there may be some issues due to architecture or just driver issues, but at least it should be possible to try.

    I don't have plans to come back to 10 as well. This OS just fights with users, definitely not user friendly. Win7 has very buggy shrinking taskbar when you place it on the left/right, especially if DWM/Areo is enabled.
    Linux has many build in blotware. Linux knows better what media player, office suite etc. I want to use. I have not found any distribution which does not have any pre-installed crappy software. If I uninstall 3/4 of the build-in software, the system becomes unstable. Debian 'stable' has unstable build in system tools. I've tried Debian at least 3 times, different versions in last years. It is not possible to install AMD drivers without messing with kernel.

    On >=Win8 there is no simply way to disable DWM. Disabling it on Win7 improves performance.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015

Share This Page