Petrol vs Diesel

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by TekkMarine, May 22, 2017.

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  1. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    I'll make this simple for you.

    EV = the normal cost of owning and operating an ICE, minus car tax and fuel.

    You can also get grants directly from the government:

    https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/what-youll-get

    Yes, that's right - the UK Government will give you money to reduce pollution.

    What I did is add additional benefits to the already awesome benefits for the OP, such as getting paid for contributing to the national grid if you have a solar panel.

    As stated though, if you got the room for solar panelling, you would be the biggest douchebag god ever let through the door, if you didn't have an EV for a 20 mile round trip. A 20 mile round trip which only requires 1 full charge a week.

    As it stands it is just a no-brainer.

    Putting this into perspective, in the UK you can visit a 'park and ride' (or whatever) on a Saturday, go to town to shop/meet friends/watch a movie as per normal, safe in the knowledge that in less time than it would take for you to do your business in town, your car would be charged for an entire week for your 20 mile round trip. Or what about just doing the weekly grocery shop for 30-60 mins? No worries, as all major supermarkets have charging stations now at the big and sometimes no-so-big stores.

    On a side note, there is currently discussion in parliament to fine people for running their engines when in traffic, amongst other ideas, to reduce pollution in cities. People do have this awful habit of just sitting there in traffic with the engine running for no reason at all.

    This would be an extension of the current law...

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/tran...edpenaltynoticesforstationaryidlingofavehicle

    ...which as you can see is “Lighting and noise offences”.

    Some talk I've heard is £20, but I think £50 is more likely after it gets put through parliament. As for enforcement, they are going to monitor it and issue fines based on the cameras at traffic lights, looking for heat output of a vehicle, which, if it is giving off enough energy through the read, will trigger a photograph and an offence ticket issued automatically to the owner.

    Did I mention insurance? Oh yeah, that's a 5% reduction right there...shop around.

    Your EV overlords are coming. And they mean business.
     
  2. Exascale

    Exascale Banned

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    Electric cars have been around forever, and you really need to factor in the environmental impact of trashing a bunch of gasoline and diesel cars and buying and manufacturing EVs with batteries and electronics that involve environmental devastation on a scale that the feel good environmentalists cant comprehend, in order to manufacture them.

    Its like much of the LED lighting craze. A lot of the LEDs used in the new street lights are LESS efficient than the high pressure sodium fixtures that theyre trashing and replacing. Many of the fire hazard consumer LEDs people buy and replace incandescents with cause eye problems and have terrible color rendering, theyre made in China with toxic chemicals, and they produce considerable e-waste. Like electric vehicles, the total enviromental and economic costs are overlooked.

    A lot of this greenwashing is actually much worse for the environment than people who just use and develop technology appropriately. A lot of it is a scam to trick gullible people into buying junk they really dont need or, things that are actually detrimental to the environment like the Paris Accord, which is nothing but a wealth redistribution scam.

    The idea of wasting infrastructure and tons of electricity to monitor engine heat output using thermal imaging cameras, all of which would be backed by a datacenter full of servers using tons of power and the buraucracy offices to deal with the ticketing, is a perfect example of the non-adaptive, destructive mentality that leads to the kind of environment we have today.

    The real solution wouldnt be to punish people stuck in traffic, but to incentivize people to use public transport or actually FIX the congestion!

    It seems pretty absurd to waste the energy and effort on such a fruitless backward endeavour as ticketing people for being stuck in traffic. As it probably would to most people with a scientific background.

    And unless your car is designed for start/stop operation youll just end up damaging the starter motor or coking your turbo.

    But we know the real motive behind foolish laws like that. Politicians, bureaucrats and the companies that back them and sell greenwashed nonsense to the gullible masses and make a fortune preying on the generally ignorant buying public.

    It also creates a perverse incentive structure, like a lot of the trade and progressive tax policies that are supposed to make things better but only end up making things worse. Government regulation and bureaucracy hasnt resulted in reduced pollution. Innovation and competetion has. Youll create a whole market for heat shields to fool the thermal imaging cameras so that people who dont want to turn their engines off can sit there idling.

    While EVs make sense for some people, they arent for everyone as they currently exist. They arent intrinsically environmentally friendly.

    Also, is the government subsidizing this solar farm on the roof? I realize you can backfeed the grid and get paid. Thats not new. Not many people can afford the initial investment of buying solar panels and wiring them up. Some people looking for a car cant afford a significant portion of the price of the car in order to charge the car. What do they do if they have to drive a distance that a normal gasoline or diesel car can go, but an EV cant? Rent a car? You have to think of these things before you buy.

    Right now, electric cars are basically feel good toys for a niche market. They arent an answer to the ICE at all, as they currently are, otherwise companies wouldnt be spending billions in research and development on better combustion efficiency for gasoline engines, and running massive simulations on supercomputers to do it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  3. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    Hilbert, your forums are terrible - I type out a response and the forum times out and I lose my post!
     
  4. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    I would like a citation on every single one of your statements.
     

  5. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    Three pages of nonsense you've spouted safe in the knowledge you never have to actually provide ANY real hard 'citation' on your original statement that an EV is the cheaper option because YOU believe that YOU are right and you then have the cheek to ask someone THAT on a post they make.

    I am sure there is a saying about some kettle being called black by a pot in there somewhere!
     
  6. Exascale

    Exascale Banned

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    That gave me a good laugh. Yeah i totally have every scientific, engineering and research paper ive read in the last quarter century compiled in case some random on the internet is so lazy that they quote my entire post and answer it with a one line "citation needed".

    Seriously, specifically refute or question something instead of being so intellectually lazy.

    Also, the forums are fine. Im posting from a phone behind a VPN. No timeouts. Perhaps its your connection or PC.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  7. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    Apologies to all, I was extremely upset after refuting everything you wrote over a about an hour of typing and checking facts, and the forum timed out my connection.

    This happened before with my complete and total attack of "Man of Steel".

    Forums do time out, I just wish there was a countdown to when the forums will time out so I can at least save it.

    But yes, your points do (mostly) require proof, because I found none, so for you to convince me, the burden of proof is on you, not me.
     
  8. Exascale

    Exascale Banned

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    Which things specifically?

    Rhodopsin mediated photo reversal caused by the spectral power distribution of high CCT white LEDs?

    Greenwashing?

    Thermal efficiency of ICEs?

    The longevity of starter motors and turbosuperchargers when improperly stopped and started?

    The Paris Accord being a redistribution of wealth scam?
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  9. thatguy91

    thatguy91 Ancient Guru

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    The type of streetlamps in your area is a key consideration when deciding whether to purchase a petrol or diesel vehicle.
     
  10. Exascale

    Exascale Banned

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    I was giving examples of greenwashing that are similarly environmentally unfriendly to EVs.

    Really gasoline vs Diesel comes down to what you want in terms of the rest of the car, and not so much on just the engine.

    Total cost of ownership varies, as do other actual priorities like reliability and safety.

    In terms of ICE technology, i would just buy a really efficient turbosupercharged gasoiline engined car or get a hybrid. Diesels have tons of torque and are excellent choices for massive efficient engines that run relatively slowly, but with 38% thermally efficient gasoline engines i dont see the need to base your purchase solely on which TYPE of fuel it uses.
     

  11. thatguy91

    thatguy91 Ancient Guru

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    Just wait for HCCI engine to become available and you can use either fuel :).
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  12. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    Just, all of your claims. That's all, just want citations, peer-viewed paper submissions, evidence, all the normal things one uses to prove their claims.

    All the sentences/paragraphs you put down.
     
  13. Exascale

    Exascale Banned

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    Oh so JUST every sentence i say needs to have citations because you dont have knowledge of the subjects being discussed?

    So if i say "the sky is blue" i need to explain Rayleigh scattering and cite peer reviewed studies. Come on.

    If you expect to be taken seriously ask a specific question about something i said. Im not your personal professor, so im really not obligated to write citations for literally every sentence i write. Especially considering you barely cite anything.
     
  14. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    That which can be claimed without proof can be dismissed without proof.

    The burden of proving your claim is not a cross I have to hold.

    I hereby dismiss every claim you've made, but am manly enough to permit you every honour to defend your position.
     
  15. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    LOL

    [​IMG]

    I am done, I am out this is some extended practical joke that only Loopy knows the punch line too.
     

  16. Exascale

    Exascale Banned

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    So by your "logic" people should dismiss literally everything you said about electric vehicles.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  17. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    The things I said about tax breaks and had links to the uk government site(s) if I said anything else which you claim requires proof, point it out and I'll happily provide it.

    See the difference? I'm happy to defend my position, and didn't use a photoshopped picture of a 90's movie to try and misdirect.
     
  18. Exascale

    Exascale Banned

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    I havent posted any images... at least pay attention to who youre responding to.

    And you never said which things required citations. Im not going to literally cite every sentence i write because youre too lazy to ask for specific clarification about something i said.

    You could also google things like thermal efficiency of gasoline engines and rhodopsin mediated photoreversal if you dont know what they are, rather than demanding people cite every sentence they write.
     
  19. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    LOL is that Loopy getting it wrong again. PS Loopy it was me that posted the image and you're right you misdirect by talking unrelenting nonsense and never providing ANY citation at all.

    Do I need to provide citation on that?
     
  20. Darkest

    Darkest Ancient Guru

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    He acts that way in almost every thread he posts in, I'd recommend taking anything he says with a pinch of salt. He'll be as vague as possible while twisting the conversation, then pretend he did no such thing in the most pedantic manner possible. He either lacks any self awareness whatsoever, or he's a grade A piss taker thats been riling up the forum for years without repercussions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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