PCIe 6.0 Specification finalized in 2021 and 4 times faster than PCIe 4.0

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Jun 11, 2020.

  1. holystarlight

    holystarlight Master Guru

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    I'm excited from a Server point of view, I'm already running dual port 100gb Mellanox cards and raid cards (MegaRAID 9560-16i) that are PCIE 4.0 attached to NVMEs that saturate the PCIE 4.0 quite abit, extra headroom is always great and much needed in the Server space.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
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  2. The Goose

    The Goose Ancient Guru

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    Given the current pricing for gen 4 drives how much more are gen 6 drives going to cost if they can supposedly run 4x faster, im currently running a Corsair mp600 2tb and mp600 1tb on my Asus prime x570pro and Ryzen 7 3800x with 32 gig of ddr4 3600, i moved an 8.5 gig mkv file from my boot drive(mp600 2tb) to my main game drive(mp600 1tb) and the transfer topped out at 1.8gbs for a second then dropped to around 600 mb/s, its good that the tech is advancing but cpu`s and motherboards in general need to improve a lot more to make use of gen 6 let alone gen 4.0
     
  3. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    I'm saying we don't need electrical x16 slots anymore. Unless there is some unprecedented breakthrough in GPU technology, PCIe 5.0 @ x8 will offer us all the bandwidth we'll ever need for a very long time. As stated before, not even 3.0 @ x16 is fully saturated.

    If we drop down to x8 lanes, we're still getting more than enough performance but motherboards will be electrically much simpler. Simplicity is good. Not only does the simplicity in and of itself make the boards cheaper (because there are fewer traces to deal with), but the reduced EMI means motherboard tolerances don't have to be so strict, which in turn means you can get by with cheaper components without sacrificing performance. Freeing up those extra 8 lanes can save a lot of space on a motherboard too, which is great for ITX builds.

    Meanwhile, by dropping x16 slots, motherboard chipsets could still offer the same amount of lanes as they always have but now you could have more M.2 slots or swap out some x1 slots for something better.
     
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  4. Caesar

    Caesar Maha Guru

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    PCIe slots come in different physical configurations: x1, x4, x8, x16, x32. The number after the x tells you how many lanes (how data travels to and from the PCIe card) that PCIe slot has. A PCIe x1 slot has one lane and can move data at one bit per cycle. A PCIe x2 slot has two lanes and can move data at two bits per cycle (and so on).

    You can insert a PCIe x1 card into a PCIe x16 slot, but that card will receive less bandwidth. Similarly, you can insert a PCIe x8 card into a PCIe x4 slot, but it’ll only work with half the bandwidth compared to if it was in a PCIe x8 slot. Most GPUs require a PCIe x16 slot to operate at their full potential.

    PCIe standards currently come in three different generations: PCIe 1.0, PCIe 2.0, PCIe 3.0 and PCIe 4.0. Bandwidth doubles with each generation.

    How do you know what performance you’ll get with a PCIe expansion card? Your PCIe card will run at the lowest generation present. So if you put a PCIe 2.0 card in a PCIe 3.0 slot, you’ll get PCIe 2.0 performance.

    The PCIe 4.0 standard debuted in 2017 and offers 64 GBps of throughput. It’s available for enterprise-grade servers, but only became usable with SSDs in 2019. The AMD Ryzen 3000-series CPUs that debuted in July 2019 were the first desktop CPUs to support PCIe 4.0 x16 out of the box. For full support, users will need new motherboards running the X570 chipset.

    Source: Scharon Harding
     

  5. Venix

    Venix Ancient Guru

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    Hmmm drop the gpu to pcie 6. X4
    Then give me 10x nvme slots pcie 6 x1
    No sata ports and 5gb ethernet and i am set ... although if the vga is on pcie 3 then it will choke :p
     
  6. JamesSneed

    JamesSneed Maha Guru

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    I very much doubt PCIe 5.0 or 6.0 will make it into desktops any time soon. These are going to live in servers for a while before making it to us mere mortals.
     
  7. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    Considering the GPU costs it shouldn't be that difficult to throw in a bracket or other form of GPU support in the existing barely-there bundles though I do like the x16's and with compatibility being what it is you'd lose performance going down from 5.0 x8 to 4.0 or 3.0 x8 whereas x16 shouldn't be as problematic in regards to graphics cards. :D

    Pretty sure that's the issue around the 5500 or which one of these it was again, dropping from 4.0 x8 to 3.0 x8 and a slight performance hit as the card doesn't use x16 for whatever reason that was decided to be a design thing.


    EDIT: It doesn't need to be anything fancy either.

    Though in today's consumer climate it does need to look fancy and come in multiple colors and with LED support...


    EDIT: There's probably a multitude of good choices though from height adjustable stands to PCI bracket screw-ins ensuring the GPU is kept nice and without any potential bending or weight issues even for those larger triple slot models and extended length variants. :)
    (And they're all sold separately and at best you get a dodgy HDMI cable and some DP/HDMI converter bundled in...)
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  8. sverek

    sverek Ancient Guru

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    Nah, I think AMD will go for PCIe 5.0 along with DDR5 in 2022. At least for enthusiast mobos.
     
  9. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    I agree. Last I heard, Intel is skipping over 4.0, are they not?
     
  10. JamesSneed

    JamesSneed Maha Guru

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    I heard that too but it doesn't make since except in servers. PCIe 5.0 and 6.0 are high frequency and high bandwidth which is great for latencies and of course bandwidth heavy things like SSD's. We already saw some issues with AMD's chipset for PCIe 4.0 running hot. That is going to be much worse for PCIe 5 an 6. Also the motherboards will get more costly as those traces are going to have to be very short for PCIe 5 and 6 which means more layers. Also, things that run on batteries would take a power draw hit as well. With all those things and the fact PCIe 4.0 is has enough bandwidth for 99.9% of non server workloads(as long as you have the lanes) I don't see this change moving as fast as some have speculated. I could be wrong but there is a lot stacked up against moving to PCIe 5.0 in desktops any time soon.
     

  11. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    I see your point and considered some of the same things, but I think Intel is skipping 4.0 simply because they already have the capability and technology to do so. PCIe is backward compatible so if Intel is capable of delivering 5.0 reliably and without much more excessive power consumption, they might as well. It is probably most costly for them to invest in 4.0, when it is already so close to obsolescence.

    I'd say 5.0 and 6.0 do have some appeal to the average consumer, particularly for x1 and M.2 slots. Those could use the extra bandwidth. x16 obviously doesn't, which is why I think it can be dropped entirely.
     
  12. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Ancient Guru

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    Do you all realize it will pass many years before PCI-E 6.0 will come on consumer PCs devices?
     
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  13. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    Personally, yes. That's why I think by the time it releases, electrical x16 slots could be dropped without causing any backward compatibility issues. A 2080Ti on a x8 slot will likely lose bandwidth, but by the time PCIe 6.0 is released, I don't think too many people are going to be using such a GPU.
     
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  14. JamesSneed

    JamesSneed Maha Guru

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    I would say the average consumer doesn't care about x1 vs x4 slot as long as they have enough PCIe lanes. If Intel and AMD both provide enough lanes on there next architecture so for example Zen4 for AMD then PCI'e will be more than enough bandwidth for most the vast majority of use cases. We can watch this unfold but I don't the consumer space will get PCIe 5 anytime soon.
     
  15. schmidtbag

    schmidtbag Ancient Guru

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    Right, but the whole point of going to 5.0 or 6.0 is you can accomplish the same goal with fewer lanes. Like mentioned before, we haven't saturated 3.0 @ x16, so the only reason to move forward is to squeeze more bandwidth into smaller slots.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020

  16. MegaFalloutFan

    MegaFalloutFan Master Guru

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    They can use PCIe Gen 6.0 to make products easier to develop with less traces and lanes and potentially cheaper.
    Gen 6.0 x2 equal in speed to Gen 3.0 x16 and 3.0 x16 is more then enough, even 2080TI runs had just 2% FPS drop on Gen 3.0 x8 and I been using it like that when had Optane in second slot and the 2% are nothing of importance, but dont take my word for it.
    In 4K x16 = 100%, x8 = 98%, x4 = 94% and even x2 = 86% [which is respectable enough]
    But lest double it, lets say the new GPU standard is Gen 4 x16, so that equals to Gen 6 x4.
    So its x4 less PCIe lanes and 4 times less traces/connections on the motherboard.
    All the SAS cards that use x8 or dual SFP+ or dual RJ45 10G cards that use x4 or x8 now, x4 capture cards, basically everything can just use Gen 6.0 x1 and will have way too much bandwidth and x1 slot is x16 less connectors and traces on the motherboard.
    But of course they have to make them compatible first, right now we dont have any Gen 4.0 products except ATI GPUs and some NVMes, lets hope this year Nvidia releases Gen 4.0 GPUs.
     
  17. tsunami231

    tsunami231 Ancient Guru

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    wait are we even using 5.0 yet? 4.0 is still not full used no? and by used I mean in actual motherboards and cpus
     
  18. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Traces may be cheap. Chips capable to do it error free not. Bandwidth never was an issue as long as you do not go moving data from system memory to VRAM for every single frame. Like in comparison in RX 5500 XT 4GB vs 8GB.
    So, yes, we have plenty of bandwidth for meaningful scenarios.

    But here comes the kicker: "Who would buy GPU with PCIe 6.0 x2 or x4 interface while sitting on still perfectly performing MB and CPU that has just PCIe 3.0."

    Those intel CPUs with PCIe 3.0 are here to stay for many years. (Not saying that PCIe 4.0 CPU/MB would deliver great experience with GPU connected via x2/x4.)
     
  19. Carfax

    Carfax Ancient Guru

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    LOL@ some of you guys whining about the uselessness of PCIe 6.0 on desktop! This tech is going to be adopted first and used heavily in HPC and datacenters where the need for bandwidth between the CPUs, GPUs and system RAM is as endless as the Milky Way Galaxy.

    Something like this won't be on desktop PCs for years to come, and by then, who knows how powerful the hardware will be that it might require this kind of bandwidth between critical components.
     
  20. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    I'd be pretty surprised if ddr5 isnt on amds platform by 2021, unless they skip a year (possible given how late into the year they are releasing zen3)
     

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