NVIDIA Shows Comparison Benchmarks for DLSS Optimized 4K Rendering

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. MrBonk

    MrBonk Ancient Guru

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    Now if only they bothered to care to make a higher quality version of DLSS that focuses on quality instead of getting the fastest possible performance out of it. Which clearly causes the quality to suffer as it obviously can't handle complex shader/specular aiasing problems. Which is a shame, because overall it seems far preferable to the average TAA which is also similarly overly focused on performance and brings a number of unacceptable compromises to image quality in a large portion of cases. (There are many exceptions)

    It's hardly blurry, and you need your eyes checked if you think it does.
    While some surfaces clearly sport a slightly smudgy look akin to a deep learning upsampler. (Because obviously that is part of what is happening here.)The overall image quality is obviously very sharp. If sharpness is all you care about, you have no business talking about Anti-Aliasing honestly.
     
  2. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Actually, it is perfect example. You just did not see it way it is.

    MS makes D3D. That enables huge gaming ecosystem, most of us live for over 20 years in. GPU manufacturers benefit. Because without D3D, they would not be really making as many games.
    And it worked very well for MS, because people buy their OS to play games on it. MS could have been under Linux in popularity if it was not for Games.

    It is pretty similar to nVidia's G-Sync, but much more sneaky. If G-Sync was cheaper (sneakier), people would have many more G-Sync screens and nVidia's grasp would be tighter.
    Instead, AMD promoted Freesync. As it is Adaptive Sync adoption, companies decided to provide this extra value to clients as it is not extra costly. Freesync is now almost common. And that gives AMD back value in terms of mindshare. So, guy buying new GPU for living room 52''+ TV will be like: "Should I buy AMD's GPU since I have Freesync of buy new G-Sync TV? What does G-Sync TV costs? Is it even available? ...Oh Sh*7!?!... OK, buying from AMD."

    Giving something out often results in adoption of technology which in return creates much larger ecosystem. Allowing original author to benefit in long term as technology does not die.
     
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  3. Glottiz

    Glottiz Master Guru

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    Well since you asked so nicely...

    Digital Foundry said DLSS is "better" in that particular case only because TAA kinda... sucks. TAA is a blurry mess of a technique with artifacts and whatnot. Ever wonder why all the DLSS comparisons so far have been against TAA? Where are DLSS vs native 4K no AA comparisons? That's right there are none, because then it would be super easy to see that DLSS is just an upscaling technique when you place it alongside a crisp native 4K image without any post processing vaseline blur effect on top of it.
     
  4. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Right... Crisp Image... Except that nobody plays Crisp Image game. Everyone plays around 60/120/... fps. And that NoAA rendering results in Crisp Shimmering. So, comparing DLSS which removes Shimmering is fair towards older TAA which has same Shimmer removing effect but is much more blurry.
     

  5. Glottiz

    Glottiz Master Guru

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    LOL. There are better ways to combat shimmering without blurring the image. But I guess RTX 20 series doesn't have the horse power to do that in 4K, ooops. :oops:
     
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  6. ScreamerRSA

    ScreamerRSA Member

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    Jensen Huang - "RTX 2070 faster than a Titan Xp!!!!!! WOW much awesomensss!! Only $599,99!!! "

    Yah, we should not ever take nVidia's marketing seriously. :D
     
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  7. Stefem

    Stefem Member

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    My fault, you quoted someone else that said that.
    I don't know, for sure I am missing something...

    1)Does NVIDIA ask money for training DLSS DNN model? do NVIDIA ask money for creating a profile in their driver?

    2)For DLSS (and other NGX tech) you only need a header file that points to a DLL in the NVIDIA driver, do other company give away supercomputer hardware for free? why relay on a profile in their driver and not implement directly in your game? and again, do NVIDIA ask money for creating a profile in their driver?

    Never heard about Caffe, TensorFlow, PyTorch, MXNet just to name few? NVIDIA relay on those AI framework, they even made a Caffe fork called NVIDIA Caffe and you know what? they are all open source.
    If you don't know you should get informed before commenting, NVIDIA provide some documentation and many discussed and described how it works, google is your friend ;)
     
  8. Stefem

    Stefem Member

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    You mean like DLSS 2x?
     
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  9. PolishRenegade

    PolishRenegade Member

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    My apologies, I meant implementing "NVIDIA's DLSS", not your own. And yes, I am aware of NVIDIA's Githubs but this is not what I mean, I am talking about getting the latest version of their algorithm. Which is in it self quite impractical. I am not interested in training a version of their AI based on an old fork of a framework they used, I want to do what NVIDIA does when you send them your game... without going through them. That -tech- is not available which makes it moot for me.
     
  10. D3M1G0D

    D3M1G0D Ancient Guru

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    These comparisons are a little iffy. To compare DLSS with TAA is extremely misleading since it is not a direct replacement (those currently using TAA cannot just use DLSS instead as it only works on games that have been trained). I consider DLSS to be an app-specific feature, not directly comparable to other AA methods.

    If DLSS worked with all games without needing training then it could be a game-changer. The fact that it needs training makes it nothing more than a gimmick. What if your favorite game/game genre doesn't support DLSS? Would you consider buying a game that you do not like because it has DLSS support? Instead of a game-changer, it will basically be a bonus feature (and currently only available to the 1.3% of gamers who play at 4K and shelled out for a 2080/Ti).
     
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  11. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    I compare it based on Functionality. DLSS does AA and removes shimmering. TAA does same, but results in much blurrier image. Implementing DLSS is for that reason preferable over TAA.
     
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  12. RzrTrek

    RzrTrek Ancient Guru

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    I think what you're referring to is the ghosting effect of TAA (have that problem in all of my UE4 games) and unfortunately those games only supports PPAA.

    However I can see how DLSS would be useful in situations where no other decent anti-aliasing methods are available, but I've just got used to turning them off.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  13. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    Such as? I guess you have a GPU that does your method (as yet undisclosed) at 4K with, and this is your standard, "better" results. Lets see it. If not, your post seems utterly pointless...unless you're just trolling to get a rise.
     
  14. Stefem

    Stefem Member

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    Like? shimmering is a temporal artifact so it's hard(euphemism) to solve with spatial methods, you need a temporal filter like TAA which introduce other artifact inherent to the technique (and I'm not talking about blur), a problem DLSS does not have
     
  15. Stefem

    Stefem Member

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    NVIDIA relay on open source AI framework for training so developers will be able to do the training process by themselves but the cost would be prohibitive, that's why they are offering to do it for free on their Saturn V supercomputer which is currently ranked 45 in the top 500 list, tested while it was equipped with the old P100 GPU (to give you a scale)
     

  16. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    Well, to remove shimmer at 4K you need either temporal supersampling (using TAA), or spatial supersampling, meaning rendering at 4 times 4K. Which is 8K (7680x4320). And now there's DLSS as a third option.

    Is there any other method?

    (I'm ignoring the MSAA-based temporal supersampling solution, used by Quantum Break, because it looked like crap. Way, way blurrier than TAA.)
     
  17. Glottiz

    Glottiz Master Guru

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    You are either very young or have short memory. There are nearly 20 major AntiAliasing methods, but yeah, let's ignore all of them and only talk about blurry TAA because it makes Nvidia DLSS look better in comparison.

    I'm playing Forza Horizon 4 right now, which looks brilliant. It supports MSAA as well as and transparency AA, meaning no shimmering and no blurry mess. No proprietary upscaling AA required to get pristine image quality when game devs know what they are doing.

    I just don't get the hype about DLSS, I really don't. Maybe I became more cynical as I grew up. But really, does no one else remember the history? Nvidia comes up with a new AA method almost every generation. Their AA methods get implemented in a handful of games to push sales of latest GPUs and then forgotten in history. Will DLSS repeat this? Will it actually become popular Nvidia tech like Gsync? We'll see.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  18. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    MSAA and transparency AA cannot prevent shader shimmering. Forza just doesn't have the kind of shaders non-racing games have.
     
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  19. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Looks like you do not even know what we are talking about. And we are talking about common effect of TAA and DLSS in DLSS thread.
    Yes, I think you have no idea what is shimmering.
     
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  20. Glottiz

    Glottiz Master Guru

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    Nice goal post moving. Suddenly you mention shader shimmering out of the blue for the first time in this thread, when in fact there is a whole plethora of different shimmering issues. From vegetation shimmering to texture shimmering, to shader shimmering, to edge shimmering etc.
    Oh yes, the good old tactic of getting personal and discrediting a post with "you don't know what you are talking about" without actually providing any decent argument to the contrary.
     

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