Nvidia is deliberately downgrading kepler gpu's performance in favor of Maxwell.

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by Angrycrab, May 18, 2015.

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  1. Monchis

    Monchis Maha Guru

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    We are beyond that, nvidia admitted that the driver had kepler specific optimizations missing, at least indirectly but they did. I mean they didn´t write them in a week, we know driver stuff takes months so they already had them somewhere. The crippling of Kepler via direct developer influence and propietary code insertion was/is the big problem.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  2. narukun

    narukun Master Guru

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    I had weird issues with my GTX 760 and Witcher 3, how is possible just with a couple of days they "fixed" the FPS problems? so they made a "Game Driver Ready" with "hard work" and then they can fix something really fast without a deep investigation or "waste of money"? Thats something wrong to me.

    I went from 20fps in the labyrinth scene to 33-35fps with just 1 driver, is that ok?.

    Also, the 270x runs better MK X than my GTX 760.

    So, if they dont have to spend a lot of money fixing this "issues" (like witcher 3), why kepler are getting slow fps over the time?.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  3. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    In what manner? Rearranging the words around while still claiming Nvidia intentionally gimped the drivers is making the same debunked claim. Either show credible evidence or admit you don't have any.
     
  4. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Nobody is beyond the above. When I had an issue with overhead, I spend an afternoon and made my case. A single person with Kepler can do the above, share the FRAPS data and if there is something malicious there it will come up. A single person with Kepler hardware and abit of persistence is all that is required. If I had one, I would do it.

    In case you skipped my walls of text (understandable): Keller and Maxwell have software schedulers which means that you need to tweak the driver for almost every game release. It is obvious that a strategy like that would eventually "leave behind" Kepler, since brain capital is limited in any corporation. Your few and very expensive expert engineers will work on the scheduler of the current generation first, since this is the one that keeps the company afloat.
    Kepler being a secondary option is very different than INTENTIONALLY making it slower than what it was.
    AMD cards have gained performance because newer games suit their architecture better, they have hardware scheduling and AMD is only focused on a single architecture that does scheduling on hardware, instead of one on hardware and two on software like NVIDIA has to.
     

  5. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    I wish I'd saved my various runs of benchmarks and games since I updated to Win 10. However, I don't lie and over the last 2 years, prior to getting the 980ti, with my SLI TITANS there was no significant performance difference other than the usual minor variations between drivers on any 3DMark bench or scripted game benches . As a matter of fact, if anything, there was a slight increase in performance over time.
     
  6. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Although my instinct tells me that you are probably correct, this is as much hearsay as the guys who say that they get less performance. Unless somebody from here, or a trusted website checks it out, it's just a rumor.
     
  7. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    Absolutely. However, I'm not asserting Nvidia intentionally gimped the drivers without evidence. Merely noting my own personal experience and BTW, if one would bother, looking at the benches here on GURU 3D and others, show no degradation of performance over time based on driver versions. If the argument is that newer game titles do not perform as well on older architectures...well that, is one of those 'well no sh!t' claims.
     
  8. moab600

    moab600 Ancient Guru

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    tbh nvidia didn't downgrade anything, it just took AMD two years to unleash Tahiti and Hawaii full potetntial, as for now 280x=780, 290=970+-.

    At times 290 outperform 980 and 970, and at times it performs worse than 970, but 290X is one of the best GPU AMD has ever done, way better than any kepler.

    780Ti should never costed 200$ more than 290x, it should cost the same price at most, and it offered small performance increase.

    Now, on my own and friends machine, i tested lot of games without FPS counter, just to see how the cards REALLY play and i found out that nvidia performs much smoother than AMD cards, specially when DX11 overhead is applied(RTS games mainly).

    To sum it up, nvidia didn't downgrade, they focues on maxwell and AMD in meantime caught up, since all their gpus are GCN based, which is smarter than nvidia going two different archs.
     
  9. Undying

    Undying Ancient Guru

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    I just cant comprehend that R7 370 which is HD 7850 for god sake being faster than gtx770. If that day i bought GK104 and not this TahitiXT card i would be furious at nvidia. Card is still selling at 200€ just like gtx960.

    We'll see what happens next. Some major titles are close but probably the trend will continue.
     
  10. Rafael_Morales

    Rafael_Morales Member

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  11. Keesberenburg

    Keesberenburg Master Guru

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  12. Fender178

    Fender178 Ancient Guru

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    Ok let me say this. To me this is like the Xbox360 and PS3 it is pointless to make games for those systems when the Xbox-one and PS4 are out. Also Nvidia wants to support current hardware rather than hardware that is been out since 2013. I am thinking it is possible that it could be the games as well not just what Nvidia might be doing.
     
  13. Monchis

    Monchis Maha Guru

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    As for the driver optimizations in witcher 3, yeah that´s ok, they sometimes introduce fixes to problems that were hurting performance badly and which we on mainstream cards can notice the most. What is not ok was forcing us to use that crappy apex clothing dll, which at least on the most popular kepler (660) was turning the game into an unplayable stutter fest. Particularly shady stuff because the game loses nothing without it.

    As for mortal kombat X, just set particles to cpu. Kepler again gains considerable performance by avoiding shady propietary stuff which was supposed to help us in the first place. Enjoy your "AMD propaganda" fps boost.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  14. ---TK---

    ---TK--- Ancient Guru

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  15. GanjaStar

    GanjaStar Maha Guru

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    well, if you've been reading the thread you would have noticed i've been saying that, and many others have as well.

    Since this thread was bumped, the discussion was on the aging of kepler in newer titles when compared to aging of GCN counterparts, and how some people interpret that as kepler being crippled.

    No need for passive agressivness and hostility. we are having a discussion. but seems a lot of people aren't reading the thread past the title, and doing snide drive by posts.

    Please read the last few pages, go over 7970/gtx680 era reviews and titles, and then compare performance of those cards in quite a few high profile games released this year, especially in the second half of the year, and then chime in on the topic if you wish, if you are seeing or not seeing kepler cards doing worse in newer titles compared to their relative performance against GCN cards in the past titles.

    I am personally seeing this, and for me, if the 970 shares the same faith i'm seeing happening to the 770 in some newer titles, I'll be carefully considering my next GPU upgrade.

    For now its great, no complaints, fantastic GPU. but I do expect a certain longevity, and one of the reasons I've moved away from AMD in the past, was that their cards aged before I wanted to upgrade, while nvidia, since the 8800, and later 260, had great longevity for me. the 660 not so much, and it remains to be seen what happens with the 970.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015

  16. Spets

    Spets Ancient Guru

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  17. moab600

    moab600 Ancient Guru

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    that is something to consider, but i do think that Kepler cards lack compute hurt them in the future, where AMD build there cast to last in the future, but kinda forget about the present, which is different from nvidia approach, their cards are less future proof, but more "present" proof.

    Maxwell will age well i think, but Pascal should be a game changer, regardless what amd brings next.
     
  18. GanjaStar

    GanjaStar Maha Guru

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    Also interesting to note. In fallout 4, kepler does wonderful.

    destroys AMD, and is very close to maxwell cards. :thumbup:

    IMO, that goes to show the engine is very old, but still, nice to see a new game where kepler doesn't feel dissapointing.


    edit: ah ninja'd :)


     
  19. Monchis

    Monchis Maha Guru

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    Why would you consider that wonderful?. Wonderful are ports that run at 60fps on a 660 but 25-30fps on ps4. It doesn´t seem blatantly crippled but could be better, 30´s on a 760 is kind of mediocre for console ports.
     
  20. Lucifer

    Lucifer Master Guru

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    yeah, how is it wonderful when the 780 Ti phantom max fps is less or the same with min fps 980 Strix ? And look at the BO3 bench, 970 is 10 fps faster than 780 Ti while 960 came close to the og Titan, Kepler is seriously neglected here. And with Pascal on the horizon, Maxwell users could get the same treatment from nvidia like Kepler users now. Disgusting nvidia, really :puke2:
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
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