NVidia Inspector 1.9.7.6 + FPS limit 59.7 = microstutter

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by 2mg, Aug 31, 2016.

  1. Glottiz

    Glottiz Master Guru

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    it works because thousands of gamers are using vsync + 60fps cap for years with silky smooth gameplay without any stuttering.

    seems like you are just speculating.
     
  2. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    Why should I speculate if I can simply try it out?
    I set RTSS limiter to 75fps and turned on Vsync in Talos Principle (75Hz), it feels exactly like Vsync without any fps-limiter (laggy).
    Which leads me to the conclusion that you just deceive yourself with a placebo effect.
     
  3. Glottiz

    Glottiz Master Guru

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    don't know what kind of weird monitor you have that it's 75hz, or maybe you are running vulkan version of talos principle (RTSS doesn't support that), but yes, you are speculating. because there are thousands of people for who this works and you are the first random forum guy who claims it doesn't work.

    on normal 60hz monitors vsync + 60fps cap works perfectly. there are even game devs who advocate using 60fps cap along with vsync for reduced input lag. this is a known solution for years, don't know why this is such news to you.
     
  4. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    I can set my display to 60Hz. But you know what? Unless you aren't giving me any technical explanation how fps-cap + vsync at the same time can work without repeated frames (stutter!), I'm not doing anything, because this simply sounds like a whole lot of crap to me.
     

  5. Glottiz

    Glottiz Master Guru

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    here's your technical info:

    but if you don't notice the difference then what's the point? keep using whatever works for you and be happy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  6. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    Where does that "info" come frome, please?
    I don't think it's technically correct, btw.

    Of course I use what I am happy with and I respect others may have a different taste. But apart from that, either something technically is right or wrong.

    There are different technically legitimate solutions which have their advantages and drawbacks which you can choose from:
    -no Vsync & unlocked fps (tearing, but little input lag and stutter; stutter is caused by tearing)
    -no Vsync & locked fps (tearing can be better or worse than no fps-lock, input lag may depend on fps-limiter, more stable fps may feel better than unlocked)
    -"modern" TB Vsync (fps are capped at refreshrate, looks ultimately smooth if fps are maintained, introduces a lot of input lag, stutters if fps aren't maintained due to repeated frames)
    -DB Vsync (as smooth as "modern" TB Vsync if fps are maintained, less input lag than TB Vsync, can stutter like hell if fps aren't maintained due to switching back and forth to devider fps)
    -adaptive Vsync (likely same input lag as DB Vsync, turns off Vsync when fps aren't maintained; imho feels slightly less smooth under optimal conditions than "modern" TB Vsync; imho noticeably stutters one time when the fps go below refreshrate)
    -"classic" TB Vsync like in borderless mode and imho the same goes for new FastSync (fps are unlocked, no tearing, less lag & stutter at high fps above refreshrate, both increasing with lower fps)
    -"modern" TB Vsync + fps-limit below refreshrate (less input lag than just "modern" TB Vsync, but regular stutter due to regularly repeated frames)
    -Gsync (no tearing, no stutter, no input lag, I think you can choose to cap fps at maximum refreshrate with DB Vsync, else you can simply use a fps-limiter without drawbacks)
    -FreeSync (the same as Gsync, but with a bit more software/display limitations, e.g. Low Framerate Compensation not granted, driver problems with in-game fps limiters which lead to tearing, not working in windowed mode, AMD's driver fps-limiter not working with DX12/Vulkan/OpenGL/windowed mode)

    But there is no "magically" fps-locking at the same fps as the refreshrate is + Vsync without input lag drawback and perfect fluidity.
    Either Vsync determines when a frame is outputted, which is perfectly synced with the display, but you have two or three frames of input lag.
    Or the fps-limiter determines when a frame is outputted, but it can't do this without waiting for the display either when TB Vsync is on (= repeated frames = stutter).
    You simply can't sum up all the advantages of Vsync and fps-limiter and expect the disadvantages to just vanish into thin air. This is just logical.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  7. jiminycricket

    jiminycricket Member Guru

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    Can confirm here, for years, that V-Sync + FPS cap feels exact same as V-Sync only. LAGGY.

    BTW thousands of people on Internet believe in placebo? So surprising...
     
  8. tsunami231

    tsunami231 Ancient Guru

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    I might know RTSS works better at limiting then nvidia inspector way but I dont use it, cause I dont care to have RTSS running when to do it.

    Besides RTSS 6.5.0 beta 5 is a beta for reason no one should ever be surprised when beta dont work right

    And if you turn off v-sync your gona get tearing one way or another which why I always have it on, The tearing in consoles games drives me absolutely nuts cause they tend not to have it on nothing ruins a game what ever you doing like tearing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  9. Mars73

    Mars73 Member

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    My neither, but glad to read it here. :)
    Having it framelimited V2 to 60Hz for Witcher 3 works wonderful.
    Never got it right with rivatuner at 60, still was not totally smooth with it, but V2 is great.
    No need for (adaptive) vsync anymore. (well I only tested with Witcher 3 so it might be different with other games).
     
  10. tsunami231

    tsunami231 Ancient Guru

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    yah v2 dont lock anything at 60FPS for me maybe cause i still using 368.22

    I have not bothered to update drivers in while
     

  11. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    If your display is running with 60Hz, setting fps-limiter in driver to 60fps will actually result in adaptive Vsync. This is some weird behavior I described somewhere above.
     
  12. khanmein

    khanmein Ancient Guru

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    weird part is that NVIDIA Profile Inspector experiencing no tearing on any games expect Dota 2 starting 372.xx drivers but previous old drivers no issue with the frame limiter + no screen tearing too.

    starting 372.xx, i need to turn off v-sync thru NVIDIA Profile Inspector to eliminate screen tearing but previously, all i need is to turn off thru game setting itself but now acted differently so i guess whether NV has changed something on the v-sync mechanism since 372.xx & since fast sync is available on NVCP.

    i had tried 6.4.0 stable version before also unable to limit the frames & avoid screen tearing.

    never mind i stick with what's working for my side. thanks for the feedback.
     
  13. 2mg

    2mg Member

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    THIS!
    This must be the problem, because as I said, until a few months ago, NVInspector did the job *flawlessly*, and I used it because some Alpha games have EasyAntiCheat and latest MSI AB + RTSS isn't whitelisted.


    I always noticed the differences between 60 and 100hz CRTs back in the day, so I really don't know why I don't see that one frame stutter you are talking about? (actually I doubt you can notice them in a chaotic environment, just in my test videos which are "synthetic")


    So, Nvidia changed something, or NVInspctor didn't adapt?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  14. tsunami231

    tsunami231 Ancient Guru

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    Like I said Turn off Vsync will always result in tearing , unless the programing gods aligned or your brain is wired in way it filters the tearing out if you one those poeple I hate you :infinity: .

    Windowed programs all have there own form of vsync that dont get limited to Monitors HZ in the form of aero/desktop composition and if you go into Fullscreen exclusive programs with vsync off it will tear too, Vsync option in nvidia only effects Fullscreen exclusive programs. any windowed program overrides the settings.

    I have friends that play games in windowed (borderless) that think vsync is "off" and there is no tearing with it off, when aero version of it is actually on and when I showed them prove that it was on they were shocked.

    Short of nvidia reversing effect vsync, which I know in version after the driver I had I read about people complain about vsync in nvcp was get turned off after a reboot, in fixing that they might reversed its effect?

    Inspector basically can only do what drivers can do, it just lets us mess with hidden settings last i checked.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  15. khanmein

    khanmein Ancient Guru

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    ^^ i always play full screen exclusive mode. let's hope next driver & nvidia profile inspector update. thanks @tsunami231
     

  16. Mars73

    Mars73 Member

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    Ah okay, so basically adaptive sync is some sort of frame limiter.
    Well with frame limiter V2 it seems that there's no occasional tearing, whereas with adaptive sync I still saw them sometimes.
    I guess it's a hit or miss depending on which driver and/or inspector version.
    (though I can live with occasional tearing, much more then stutters).
     
  17. tsunami231

    tsunami231 Ancient Guru

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    Then the problem is something in the drivers went wrong, Inspector can only do what drivers are capable of. if things are broke in drivers then it will remain broke in inspector too.
     
  18. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    No.
    Adaptive Vsync is Adaptive Vsync. Like described in another post, Adaptive Vsync is double buffered Vsync with an automatism to be turned off when fps are below refreshrate and again to be turned on when above it.

    Tried Talos Principle, they both give the total same result.
    I definitely get tearing with both when fps are below refresh rate.

    I'm gonna try out BF4 with 60Hz, just to be sure.
     
  19. aufkrawall2

    aufkrawall2 Master Guru

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    Yep, if the fps-limit is too close to the refreshrate, driver fps-limiter acts like adaptive Vsync.

    This is with both "old" fps-limiter and fps-limiter v2, but the latter seems even more aggressive on forcing vsync on when close to refreshrate.

    However, good news is: We can simply turn this off.
    Simply set up the option "Frame Rate Limiter 2 Control" to "force off":
    [​IMG]

    Now you can limit fps with Frame Rate Limiter v2 as close to refreshrate as you like. However, set up fps values may become a bit inaccurate. In my tests real fps were 1.5 or 2.5fps higher than set up.
    Example: If you want to limit closely below 60fps, set up 58 or 57fps with Frame Rate Limiter v2 to get 59.5fps (whole numbers don't seem possible anymore with that flag set like described above).
    Then you can still force vsync on on top of that if you like (didn't look more stuttery to me than forced fps with RTSS; however, I personally don't like it).
     
  20. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Imo nvidia's own fps limiter was always worse then RTSS.. RTSS and DXtory are the best, then its nv.


    And this 59.7fps limit & no lag is bs, I got more jittery picture then at native 60fps (60hz vsync) and lag is still not really noticeable (Im quite picky about input lag)..
     

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