Nvidia Has a Driver Overhead Problem

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by RealNC, Mar 15, 2021.

  1. BlindBison

    BlindBison Master Guru

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    Or, how much of it is related to AMD using a hardware scheduler?

    Since Nvidia is running a software scheduler on the CPU without hardware on the GPU like AMD, would it take another GPU refresh for Nvidia to meaningfully change their scheduler?

    I could be misunderstanding something in all that, but here’s hoping they improve things.
     
  2. Chrysalis

    Chrysalis Master Guru

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    how many esports games are dx12?

    cod
    starcraft 1/2
    lol
    rocket league
    hearthstone

    etc.

    The fix from nvidia may not be possible in the driver, it could be down to how the hardware is designed, we simply dont know, that was another wild assumption from HU.

    I no doubt agree with BindBison that overtime it will gradually become more relevant as DX12 will be dominant in new games, as of right now barely any games use it though so I expect by the time DX12 is in most games that people play nvidia may have fixed it in their products.
     
  3. The Goose

    The Goose Ancient Guru

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    I know right.....but is there any need for 5 Nvidia containers and 3 Nvidia share files to run at the same time.
     
  4. AsiJu

    AsiJu Ancient Guru

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    Why does everyone associate this with esports only?

    This matters to anyone aiming for a high framerate (144 Hz +) on 1080p or 1440p in any game.

    I don't know how legit the driver overhead claims are at this point but the issue shouldn't be marginalized either way.

    As for whether 60 Hz vs. 144+ Hz makes a difference, try it out and see.
     
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  5. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    More or less all new games use dx12 / vulkan.

    As for your examples, CoD uses dx12, as does fortnite.
     
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  6. Chrysalis

    Chrysalis Master Guru

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    Yeah but the problem is most esports games are older games. There is multiple releases of CoD and CSGO is still very popular. All the others on my list are not DX12.

    This is where I think reviewers have been approaching their reviews wrong, they approach as if only future games matter, when most of the gamer player base plays older games. HU dived into this assuming we all only care about DX12, and now have had to clarify they making a v2 video realising their mistake of thinking older API's dont matter.

    If it is a driver problem though, and we end up with better DX12 from Nvidia as a result then its only a good thing, which is ultimately what matters.
     
  7. Dragam1337

    Dragam1337 Ancient Guru

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    They stated in their first video, that this only applied to dx12.

    It is not a driver problem - it is due to amd using a hardware scheduler, and nvidia using a software scheduler - amd's solution doesnt use cpu resources, nvidia's does.
     
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  8. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Or... they simply buy a more expensive / better performing CPU. At least Intel would be happy to sell you more than an i3 (which they tested) if you are a "pro gamer".
    Wouldn't that solve the issue as well? Can't imagine an esports gamer deliberately running on legacy or mid tier hardware... or at least I wouldn't, that's my thinking.


    There's been this thread, another deleted one I believe, or maybe it's this closed thread (which you found yourself too), Unrealgaming's first posting of the initial video here, here's another link to a post by a fellow guru in the same thread. I was just guessing, mods tried to bring together all the responses.




    That said, very interesting topic, and a good find. With my 5930K and a 2080TI I'm more than aware I'm CPU bound at 1440p already.
    Still some research to do, but it might change a few people's buying decision down the road (once people get their hands on actual gaming hardware in 2020/2021).
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
  9. ivanosky

    ivanosky Active Member

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    The problem with this video is that it has a very clickbait title while only showing data for 2 games and trying to frame the issue as a general driver issue. 2 games is a very small sample size to conclude that there is a widespread problem with the driver. Then they mentioned in the comments that the issue applied to other DX12 and Vulkan games, but they didn't provide any data to back that up, and they also implied it happened on older APIs like DX11 and had to retract that later on Twitter and on the video's comments.

    If you're going to claim there's a widespread issue in the driver then you need to have the data to back that up, showing a big number of games on multiple APIs, different conditions and hardware configurations. Otherwise it looks like a rushed job trying to use the data points that explains a preconceived opinion while ignoring or not investigating other data points that might disprove it.
     
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  10. Stormyandcold

    Stormyandcold Ancient Guru

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    I'd have to say that in esports DX12 isn't even relevant right now, but, as others have said this will likely change in time.

    For me, the problem with DX12 is stability. DX11 is still more stable, especially in a competitive environment. That's just due to devs having more experience with DX11 and niggly bugs in DX12 drivers that take time to fix.

    Remember that we aren't actually that far away from the days when online gamers would avoid DX12 to begin with given the choice. I still don't think we've moved that much further forward. Both Nvidia and AMD still have plenty of work to do stabilizing DX12 and all it's features.

    Anyway, right now I think we actually have enough graphical features, knobs and whistles. Enough new stuff to go round for sure (and with RT everyone can milk it forever $$$). It's time Nvidia branched off their drivers to see what they could do with a dedicated team focusing on the latest cards only, while the rest of the team work on back-porting fixes to older gpus. I've enjoyed Nvdia's driver support, but, it's time for them to dedicate themselves and maybe even consider a re-writing of significant chunks of the code if that's what it takes. Acknowledge the problem and work on a solution, business 101.
     

  11. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Which would mean, at the time we're awaiting their new line up, their best engineers are already abandoning ship and working on cards we don't even have. And when it goes like now, the numbers actually profiting of such driver work would dwindle during times of low availability (like the pandemics of both the sickness of Covid19 and mining craze 2.0). And I don't even mention people would have to pay for a new card to get the best driver support. Also, people waiting for actual reviews when cards are out in the wild will be bypassed by preorders and mainly, scalpers.

    I'm not sure that's a good idea. The rest of your post I agree with, but I myself wouldn't fancy the approach of splitting up driver releases. There's arguments about Nvidia screwing over older hardware owners or not (I don't believe so), but such a suggestion would make it a fact by design.
     
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  12. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    Kindly stop regurgitating this misinformation.
     
  13. windrunnerxj

    windrunnerxj Master Guru

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    Is this something that HAGS can potentially improve or is it unrelated?
     
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  14. Stormyandcold

    Stormyandcold Ancient Guru

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    I've always been about maximum support as far as drivers are concerned, but, it seems obvious to me now that keeping the status quo might mean we'll never really see the cards full potential. I mean if someone said that going this route yielded up to 20% more performance I think it'd be worth it. At the same time, all fixes are still being implemented on older hardware so no-one is really losing as such. This approach could help speed-up improvements to things like the scheduler, with all the benefits of back-porting.
     
  15. user1

    user1 Ancient Guru

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    IThe ryzen parts with multiple l3 caches are hit harder than they should be, amd has worked on improving thread pinning behaviours with their opensource drivers. with this in mind i would expect the same to be present in the closed source driver, this behaviour may not be present in the nvidia driver considering chips with unified caches had been the norm for a while prior to ryzen on the consumer side.

    secondly, since nvidia is maintaining compatibility with decades worth of x86 cpus, its very possible that the target(or targets) they've chosen don't get the best performance they can on newer chips.
    (would be interesting to see if nvidia is utilising newer instructionsets, Ive always wondered why some opengl games report SSE2 in the device strings. )

    overall this isn't that surprising, nvidia has had greater total overhead for a long time, the difference being that in the past , multithreading in amd's driver was simply non-existent essentially.
     
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  16. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    Now for most gaming and PC "enthusiasts", this overhead issue (if it actually exists, seems jury is still out) is not a real problem. However, there's the "low spec gaming" crowd. There are many, many people out there who can only build low spec PCs. Like Pentiums and Athlons or $40 Xeons from ebay and such, combined with the cheapest still-useful-for-gaming GPU they can find. For those folk, CPU overhead is very important.

    And I'm not only talking about poor people here, but also people in countries with absurd dollar-to-regional-currency exchange rates, where a $700 GPU's cost is your equivalent of $5000. They're pretty much locked into 720p or lower gaming. Now, these people most probably already choose AMD to begin with (less expensive), but still.
     
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  17. tfam26

    tfam26 Master Guru

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    IDIOT TAX
     
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  18. P_G19

    P_G19 Member

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    Dumb suggestion but here goes.....
    can't Nvidia rewrite the driver in a way which the scheduler work on Tensor cores for RTX gpus and CUDA for GTX gpus or that may have a bigger performance hit... especially on GTX gpus?

    i am still using i7-2600 with my gpu and if the overhead mitigation/fix can give me 15% performance increase that would be great. but i won't hold my hopes up. I won't upgrade anytime soon so any performance increase is appreciated.
     
  19. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    Nvidia continues to use the gigathread and warp schedulers since Fermi, contrary to misguided youtubers, it IS done on the gpu - but with hinting from the driver being possible

    https://cake.wpi.edu/assets/papers/gilman20_performance.pdf

    Nvidia has NEVER said they removed the hardware scheduler, here is the exact blurb that armchair engineers have falsely interpretted.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  20. itpro

    itpro Master Guru

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    So, Nvidia can fix it or not that's the point given here. They lose to amd badly at lower mid range systems.
     
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