Nvidia CEO: Radeon VII is lousy and nothing new

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Yes, nice that you had AMD systems. I guess it would be hard to find older person around who did not.
    But all you wrote about again is: "nVidia's pricing reduction in reaction to AMD's products."
    And just added "AMD may become option for some."

    But as AMD projects poor sales of any product, count in manufacturing, repairs, ... Having no product is often better than having product which does not sell in sufficient volume.

    When (and if) AMD releases nicely priced products, I'll be happy as you will. But I would rather see people to show at least 1/2 of respect AMD treats them with.
    And as I wrote, AMD is angry on GPU front. (Yes, sign of weakness on human level. "Being angry because someone does not recognize your strength.")

    But I hope (likely as AMD do) that people will open their eyes as result. And start treating nVidia<->AMD in similar fashion as they do intel<->AMD. Anywhere near objectively is good.

    One can objectively go and say: "Sorry AMD, Radeon 7 is not good gaming GPU. You are selling yet another Compute GPU as gaming."
    For me, AMD does not have Gaming product above RX-580, and that's why gaming performance/$ was not exactly good. But I recognize that it is Compute GPU and that it has its use there.

    Situation we are in now was understandable (and predictable) within 2 months from Vega 56/64 release. If you can find those threads and my critique there. I would say I gave it more hammering than it deserved.

    And I can say that I did wrote about different "leaks" and what will be consequence if they are true. RX-590 one before Radeon 7 hint.
    RX-590 release told us that Navi is either not very close or will perform above it. Now we have radeon 7, therefore you can expect that AMD will not replace it with Navi.
    Therefore Navi will fill space of older Vega 56/64 1st. Shortly after it will scale down to replace Polaris. (Unless there is still need to produce 14nm GPUs at GloFo.)
    And then much later it will jump to 2080(Ti) territory.

    But Chiplets on CPU shift things too. Especially AMD using that "I/O hub" even on Ryzen (Top-Bottom strategy). Having similar "I/O hub" designed for GPU Chiplets, and suddenly You have 4 times 20CUs on one card. Comfortably outperforming even 2080Ti-successor at much lower manufacturing cost. But this is really vaporware till we see actual Ryzen having 2 chiplets and therefore 12C/24T (or even 16C/32T). Because we need to see if those "I/O hubs" are good at memory bandwidth management and more importantly "chiplet to chiplet context switching".
    My guess is 2020Q2 for AMD to deliver that top-dog-GPU. This will shift depending on Ryzen 3000 prices.
    we may find out that "I/O hub" + 2 chiplets is cost efficient solution. And then AMD will have much bigger reason to push it down to GPUs sooner.

    Don't take it bad or as personal attack. I do not really mean to bash you or anyone else. I just want people to realize situation we are in. And way they do affect it. That will save a lot of people a lot of frustration.
     
  2. tensai28

    tensai28 Maha Guru

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    Well I guess the fact remains, whenever I am faced with upgrading my video card, being a 4k gamer, I really have only one choice. That's the most frustrating thing. I would love it if there was a AMD card to chose from as well but year after year, the performance gap between nvidia and AMD is too big. There just is no competition in the high end market and that is very damaging to all high end pc gamers. Nvidia pretty much can continue to raise the prices and there's not much any of us can do about it.
     
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  3. BlackZero

    BlackZero Ancient Guru

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    It's simple supply and demand.

    Just wish people would cut out the unbelievably lame excuses about not having a choice.

    Hey, I bought a 4K screen, but no graphics card can do 60 fps on it. Still, this card does 45 and that one only does 39, so I'll pay four times more for that other one because I have no choice.

    WTF was that from start to finish then? :rolleyes:
     
  4. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    hehe yes, sad but true... but to be honest, you knew no single GPU could drive 4K60 at the time you bought your monitor... not sure what the big surprise could be there :D
     
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  5. Jayp

    Jayp Member Guru

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    Yes the argument that something is new and it doesn't matter is pretty entertaining. Tessellation was new once and only in select titles now look at it showing up in basically every modern game. Maybe some of the crowd is too new to PC gaming to understand that sometimes big tech comes through and it's not going away. Tessellation was a performance killer when it was introduced as well. Now it is a non issue and ray tracing could be that same way. The best thing is, Ray Tracing isn't even Nvidia tech it is open and in DX12 as DXR. So the haters of DXR because Nvidia is the only one providing their own "RTX" solution to DXR might want to open their eyes. This isn't Nvidia specific game tech only Nvidia's approach to solving it is. I hope to see AMD on board with DXR at some point and I expect they will be. Only beef I have with DXR right now is limited title selection and performance hit but this can all change in the time to come.
     
  6. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    1080 ti release date: March, 2017
    2080 ti release date: September, 2018
    Months inbetween: 18 months
    Years: 1.5

    Not 2.5 years.

    Unless you meant the release date inbetween Pascal and Turing, which is 2.33 years, closer to your 2.5, but you specifically stated 1080 ti, as quoted.

    Just putting that out there since everyone seems to be on the idea that the 1080 ti was released 2.5 years prior to the 2080 ti, seen it posted multiple times.
     
  7. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    You are right. But does it change anything on year-to-year (generation-to-generation) performance per $ improvement at $700 price mark?
    What will you say in situation when in another 1,5 years from this release you get exactly same performance per $ improvement on $700 card?

    Remind me, how much faster is current card w/ MSRP of $700 over last card w/ MSRP of $700?
    What is current projection for next 6 years?
     
  8. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    They could have never made a 1080 ti, and kept the Titan X as the top tier card until the 2000 series came out. Then you would have had a $1200 Titan X card be similar performance to the $699 RTX 2080, and the $999 RTX 2080 ti being massively better then the $1200 card of previous generations.

    Would you have appreciated that? Would that be a better scenario? Should the 1080 ti have never come out with its $1200 performance for $699, all things being the same otherwise?

    Pretty much when you look at it that way the only thing nvidia did "wrong" was release a 1080 ti, that had pretty much equal performance of the Titan X, but for much cheaper, and if they had never done that, all this nonsense currently wouldn't exist, aside from naming, which means nothing.


    Depends on what your "definition" of "performance" is.

    Rasterization performance difference? Very similar, with the 2080 usually winning out of the 1080 ti, sometimes by a little, sometimes by quite a bit.

    Ray tracing? Well, if the 1080 ti could do it, and if we are to believe nvidia, then it provides 6 times as much performance then the previous generation. Generally, we never see a 6 times improvement between generations, so that's a massive, massive improvement.

    But since we can't do ray tracing on the 1080 ti, i guess the real performance difference between them is infinite? 0 vs whatever the 2080 can do?

    You can't just take ONE metric to define a card, that's cherry picking and does literally nothing for comparison. If you can, then here's my cherry pick for rasterization:

    [​IMG]

    My cherry picked difference between $700, just like you asked, is a performance increase of 33 percent between generations at the same cost.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  9. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    But 1080Ti has been released. And everyone expected 1080Ti to be released. And even if it was not. Then there would be card at lower MSRP delivering generation-to-generation improvement in terms of higher performance per $.

    And as you want to shift it to those $1000+ MSRPs... Did you mean 2015 Maxwell Titan X with MSRP $1000 or some other Titan X? And by $1000 RTX 2080Ti, did you mean $1100~1200 RTX 2080Ti?
    Because back in Titan X times, you could have had card at given MSRP. Cheapest RTX 2080Ti is above $1100 once one shaves taxes. Half decent cards go for $1200. And Fancy ones for $1400. Add lovely tax and one kindly reminisce that $1000 Titan X.

    And even if RTX 2080Ti came at $1000 price tag, it would not be any better. There is no comparing old titan to new Gaming card. Go compare last gen top gaming card in terms of performance per $ to this top gaming card. Or go do same for Titan vs. Titan.

    Otherwise you can just go and say that $2500 Titan RTX delivers better performance per $ than last generation $6000 server card and that makes it well priced.

    Apples to Apples man. If you try to distort metric, I am not gonna like it. Nor will it gain you any respect. Objectivity is way to go.
    = = = =

    Now as for naivety of world where 1080Ti does not exist. Can you write few implications of such situation?
    World where last generation top card did have MSRP of $600?
    World where Top AMD's card matched nVidia's in gaming performance? (And crushed it in compute?)
    ...
    Do you think nVidia did release 1080Ti from kindness of their harts?
    Do you think people would welcome 2080Ti at that price if they were not conditioned by 1080 Ti and crazy mining price bumps?
    (Are actually people welcoming 2080Ti as savior of sorts?)

    You are painting Fairies and Unicorns. I think I'll note you down for time when I need some random story I can incorporate.
     
  10. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    Why would i be talking about the maxwell titan X? .........

    https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/products/10series/titan-x-pascal/ $1200 MSRP

    not

    https://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-titan-x $1000 MSRP

    And the RTX 2080 ti is $999, that its MSRP, that is its price, if you don't understand that, and are looking at that third party companies that are not nvidia are pricing them at, i can't help you. I did not state RTX 2080 ti FE.

    Blaming Nvidia for 3rd party manufacturers/sellers not following their MSRP would be as though you would make a product, give it to all the sellers out there, state you want it to be $19.99, no one abides by that and instead prices it for $29.99, and the consumers blaming you, the creator, for it not being $19.99....

    As to the rest of your post, it pretty much is spewing nonsense as it does not answer any question i asked, instead, it deflects since you clearly do not care to have any other thought process then your nonsense. Can't help you there either.

    I'll try again though, simple question:

    Would you have rathered the 1080 ti never came out, and the $1200 Titan X be the top tier card, just so you wouldn't be upset by the 2000 series?

    If you can't answer that very simply question, i am sorry.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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  11. D3M1G0D

    D3M1G0D Ancient Guru

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    Nvidia can raise prices on their products as much as they want but they can't force people to buy them. I say the best response to a company hiking prices is to boycott them. These are luxury products we're talking about here, not necessities.

    I game at 4K as well but I'm more than happy to stick with my 1080 Ti until there's a viable alternative (not only was I disappointed by the 2080 Ti's price, but by its' 4K performance as well). A company can only get away with hiking prices if consumers vote for it with their wallets ;)

    The reason for most of the hate is because of the lackluster implementation. If RTX completely transformed games and made them look hyper-realistic (a la Star Wars demo) then the performance hit may be acceptable. Instead, we have slightly more accurate reflections that are hardly noticeable in actual gameplay - what WILL be noticeable is the massive dip in FPS. AMD was right on this one: as it stands, ray-tracing is simply not acceptable for its performance impact and Nvidia jumped the gun on it. I'm willing to bet that the majority (if not all) RTX owners who play BF V play with RTX off.

    The fact of the matter is that real-time ray-tracing is still not here yet. RTX provides a glimpse into a ray-traced future but it will be some time before hardware becomes powerful enough for it.

    Massively better? In what universe is a 30% improvement massively better? I mean, 30% improvement after 2.5 years is downright depressing (massively underwhelming is more like it)
     
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  12. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    For $200 less and 30% better, yes, massively. And the fact that one can do ray tracing and the other can't at all, yes, massively.

    But personally i find it interesting you picked out that specific spot, as "massively" is subjective, and who cares if your personal opinion of massively doesn't match mine? I didn't put specific percentages, if you don't consider %30 faster for $200 less being massive, thats your own deal, nothing to do with what i posted.

    It's like you're looking for something to have an issue with. Good job i guess?
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
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  13. ManofGod

    ManofGod Ancient Guru

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    Well, I think Nvidia is Lousy so there. :eek::rolleyes: I am tempted to pick up the Radeon 7 direct from AMD but, we will see.

    I do not think any card at that price is even worth mentioning. It still has the same final image quality as previous Nvidia cards, and not as good side by side as the AMD cards. (Image quality, not fps, AA, AF or that other stuff, just the final image on the screen.) They sacrifice some things on their hardware to reach the "ultimate performance".
     
  14. Maddness

    Maddness Maha Guru

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    Not that it matters much, but I'm not sure where the 30% performance comes from after 2.5 years. It's more like 60% as the 1080Ti came out around 16 months ago. So for 2.5 years you would be comparing it to the 1080.
     
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  15. Maddness

    Maddness Maha Guru

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    I'm sure these will sell well. No doubt about that. But none of these cards offer value at these prices. The 2070, 2080, 2080 Ti and Radeon 7 are all over priced. Wake me up when Navi gets here and brings some sanity to the situation.
     

  16. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    Again, manufacturers MSRP does not have to be used, ever, for any product, aside from when a company has a legal binding between the companies. It would be foolish for nvidia to legally bind companies by this though as that would not allow 3rd party manufacturers to innovate, make better coolers, etc.

    I don't care that the price doesn't exist anywhere, in relation to being nvidias fault. That is the 3rd party manufacturers and retailers fault, and solely lies on them. The only fault that could potentially be put on nvidia is that they do not, themselves, make a non-FE version.

    Again, if i, or you, or anyone else out there makes a product with an MSRP of $19.99, but no retailer sells it for $19.99, and instead all sell for $29.99 themselves, there is no fault in you or i, and that fault solely lies on the retailers. And it doesn't matter if i charge the retailers $18.99, or $9.99. You don't see retailers charging more then $499 for a standard xbox one x, of which they make $5 on. Yes, $5, that's not a made up number, i have worked for 3 seperate companies that have sold consoles, the xbox 360, xbox one, and xbox one x, all had a $5 less then retail cost on them. But again, you don't see the retailers charging more, because the MSRP is too close to what Microsoft charges them, so the idea that the 2080 ti cost too much to the manufacturers that it doesn't give them room? Too bad to them, the fault still lies on them as they can still do a basic model of the RTX 2080 ti with a basic cooler, and yet even then they charge more then the $999 MSRP

    Blame the CORRECT people/organizations.

    He was comparing it to the Titan X which i quoted, which was about 2 years before the 2080 ti, and performed similarly to the 1080 ti, but was a $1200 card.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
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  17. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    That has been the case for all FE cards, and previous FE cards didn't actually have any benefit over a basic version of the card, no overclock, cheap cooler, yet cost more for some nonsense reason. At least this time you get something better for the extra money. But this never made manufacturers not have at least one card at MSRP before, so there's no reason for it now. It falls on the manufacturers.
     
  18. D3M1G0D

    D3M1G0D Ancient Guru

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    As others mentioned, the real price of the 2080 Ti is closer to $1200. And I repeat, 30% better after 2 and a half years comes nowhere close to "massively better" - 30% is what we expect at the very least for a next-gen product.

    I find it funny how you are so desperately trying to spin Turing into something amazing, LOL.
     
  19. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    MSRP = $999, none of your opinions can change that. This is fact.

    And the fact that we have ray tracing possible, is amazing, people who don't agree, simply don't understand what ray tracing is and how resource intensive it is.

    But what you originally quoted, was a statement how if nvidia never made the 1080 ti, something they didn't have to make, then the prices would not be as outlandish as people believe they are.

    It's fact people have zero understanding of die size increases in the 2000 series of graphics cards and the research and development that went into making ray tracing possible, all making these cards expensive.

    In comparison to AMD Radeon VII, there's no competition. Radeon VII will be good for some people, but not gamers. Radeon VII is the only card you can say is 2.5 years late to the party for the same price of a 1080 ti, since it doesn't bring anything new to the table but basic rasterization improvements over their previous cards. The only thing interesting about the Radeon VII is the fact it uses HBM.

    I really hope this will not be the case of Navi, i hope that navi pushes boundaries, brings us into new technological advancements, makes something that was previously impossible, possible. But radeon VII, didn't, RTX 2000 series, did. It's that simple.

    I want competition, i want ray tracing to mature, i want prices to come down over their premium, all of this would be great, but again, Radeon VII is not the answer to this, and the "hate" that the RTX series gets, stems from peoples inability to understand what RTX is, what it means for our future game development, and is realistically the first major break through in graphics cards capabilities in years. But hey, lets all give flack to a company that is trying to bring us into the future, lets all ride the hate train, because what's cooler then that right?
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
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  20. Maddness

    Maddness Maha Guru

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    Its not 2.5 years. The 1080Ti came out around 16 months ago.
     
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