Nvidia CEO: Radeon VII is lousy and nothing new

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Snajlen

    Snajlen Active Member

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    Even if AMD with Navi might pull out RayTracing , im pretty sure it wont run on BFV. unless devs implement it for AMD Tech aswell.
    RTX sounds like the new PhysX to me. Dead as soon as it was out.
    Only a few games ever implemented it and it never ran that well , only on the Batman Titles.
    Ray Tracing in real time sure is revolutionary , but ill pick 144hz Ultra over RTX barely 60 fps on FullHD.
    FullHD days are kinda over for me.
     
  2. McFly121

    McFly121 Member

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    And when or should I say maybe in some ridiculous dream, I buy Nvidia RTX 2080 for 800-900 bucks my wallet will be broken.HAHAH
    And Radeon VII for 700 bucks is no go.

    I think it is better buy used RX 580 8 gb from mining rig and change termal paste.It wil cost me here in Croatia 230 bucks or 200 euros with original box.
    https://www.njuskalo.hr/graficke-kartice/sapphire-nitro-rx580-8-gb-oglas-27399659
     
  3. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    Well yeah the DXR implementation is on devs - so they'd definitely have to plug into AMD's "RTX variant" library in order to get acceleration but they already set the game up to do that. It's the reason why they aren't using tensors for denoise. The RTX gameworks library is just an easy method for devs to quickly integrate it into their games. The better studios/engines will implement DXR and use NVAPI/RTX acceleration to accelerate the workload.

    I think people are confused about how RTX works. RTX is a branding for Nvidia's acceleration of RT in hardware. DXR is what actually creates the BVH instance and creates the framework for ray traversal calculations. DXR can work cross vendor - game dev can implement DXR then accelerate it with either Nvidia or AMD's protocol for acceleration (typically some kind of open/proprietary library) RTX Gameworks is a completely different thing - it's Nvidia only prepackage of DXR effects for gamedevs to quickly implement. BF5 doesn't use this and I doubt most of the bigger games/engines will. It's for smaller studios to quickly integrate DXR tech into their game and have it run easily/effortlessly.

    Hardware PhysX never got off the ground because it was always Nvidia only and CPU physics were always good enough. DXR is different because it's part of DX12, supported by both vendors, will eventually dramatically increase image quality and reduce artist workload. Eventually all games will use it or some form of RT and you won't get the choice between not enabling it so you won't know the performance difference anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  4. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    It gives hint. But it does not confirm anything at all except relative performance enabled by nV's driver code paths. Therefore you do not really know how AMD's compute performance translates to DX-R performance till AMD releases driver which enables it.

    nVidia's driver is black box. And we do not have anyone here who can say that those cards use same code paths.
     

  5. Jayp

    Jayp Member Guru

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    You know guys I think it is a fair statement. It seems rude when it is put out there like this but I think it's a real competitive opinion that many could share in the same position. Really the Radeon 7 is boring. The AMD exclusive fans really kill me, complaining about Nvidia all the time acting like AMD is their savior. Well here we are nearly 2 years from the launch of the 1080 Ti and AMD is finally giving us a card that will trade blows and probably win overall at a $700 price point that was already delivered on in March 2017. It doesn't do anything that isn't already being done, so yea it is boring and I agree with that. I don't doubt this will be a good card but it's not doing a whole lot for a price and performance that already exists. Super entertaining to me how AMD fans see the 2080 at $700 and complain for days. Now AMD releases a $700 card and life is good lol. Sure DXR is in its infancy and so is DLSS but these are two techs the Radeon 7 doesn't have and they are the same price cards. Personally, I would like to see a Radeon 7 card with less memory so it could be more affordable. 16 GB of HBM2 VRAM is completely unnecessary. I guess AMD just got tired of following on memory capacity.

    If Radeon 7 was $600 it would be making much greater strides IMO. AMD is doing what they do time and time again, joining Nvidia at given price points. They don't actually slash prices as everyone expects a competitor to do. Nvidia isn't just gouging here comes AMD for a slice too.

    Furthermore, I think the $250 rumors of 1080 level performance might as well be dead in the water now that the $700 7 nm card has been announced and its like 1080 Ti/2080 level or a bit better.
     
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  6. Jayp

    Jayp Member Guru

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    He is probably upset like a parent that AMD isn't helping push boundaries. AMD really does seem to just be playing the safe route here. Nvidia clearly wants to push Ray Tracing and I think they are upset that AMD just wants to get money and not push anything actually new to the market. Honestly, at $700 RTX 2080 already seems very competitive after this taste of Radeon 7 said to be $699. Let's not forget the Freesync argument just left AMDs side so for $700 you get a card that probably will out perform the 2080 in vulkan benchmarks and maybe some other async DX12 stuff but doesn't give anything more. At least on a 2080 you can have similar performance and ray tracing tech whether you want it or not for the same price.

    I think the new Radeon will be a solid performer but admittedly it's not very exciting. RTX didn't excite me all that much but this Radeon 7 stuff is super boring because there is no new tech that is justifying why this card sits at this price/performance.
     
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  7. Jayp

    Jayp Member Guru

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    So it's better than AMD joins them at $700 lol. Bought my 1080 Ti in beginning of 2017 and now AMD has a competitor to it. This $700 performance mark is getting stale and AMD isn't doing much of anything to change it. Looks like I will be keeping my 1080 Ti for at least another couple of years. The GPU market has really made the life of Pascal cards long guess I can't hate that.
     
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  8. Amaze

    Amaze Ancient Guru

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    Is it really that difficult to take the high road when you control 80% of the market?

    And it's way too soon to use lack of raytracing and DLSS as a put down. I'm not seeing the game industry embracing either.
     
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  9. Kaleid

    Kaleid Ancient Guru

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    If Nvidia alone dominates it will stagnate the market just like CPUs have been for quite some time. Once Ryzen came out Intel had to put in more effort, more cores etc so much so that they did some rush jobs. Unfortunately to create Ryzen AMD had to move manpower away from the GPU department to the CPU department but that might really well pay off in the end, heck even I got myself a Ryzen CPU now after years of Intel.

    The sad part is that AMD does not have the proper resources to create as they at one time could, which makes this just a refresh and thus not so interesting. I don't think they would foresee Raytracing either, I certainly didn't and of course I'm excited about the whole thing but it's also way too early to jump on the bandwagon. We need both companies doing this and hopefully not with their own methods which will harm the market and may even perhaps kill the technology for quite some time. Look into tessellation, AMD introduced it early on but others did not really do it at all....it died. Creative's EAX was terrific, but other brands were not given the same technology and just emulated...the technology died and hardware acceleration died with it and sound-effects in different rooms is quite rare now. PhysX didn't become as big as it should have been either, and Nvidia refuses to go with adaptive sync even though this might come to TVs quite soon.
     
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  10. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Take raytracing in movies. Those are today greenscreen/motion capture and full raytracing of fully virtual scene.

    Play this in 480p. When games can do full raytracing of every pixel at least on 480p and match this image quality, raytracing will be ready for use.

    Edit: Why? Because raytracing is not about delivering accurate reflection of object which itself looks poor to start with.
    Raytracing is about delivering photorealistic physically based images.
     

  11. SerotoNiN

    SerotoNiN Ancient Guru

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    When Ray Tracing becomes meaningful, I'll reevaluate such an unprofessional, unnecessary comment. Until then, AMD could have just as easily criticized nvidia for charging so much, for a gpu touting unavailable features @ launch (RT), only one game supporting the feature as I type this, and a second feature (dlss) already proven to be lower IQ.

    Nvidia must be getting full of themselves with all those big money deals having their chips in consoles...oh wait, that's not them.

    AMD has more reason to take the low road and doesn't. Nvidia needs a calendar from 2002 on the desks of all these cocky CEO's to stay humble.
     
  12. cowie

    cowie Ancient Guru

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    but it takes neither to deduce its a 1080/1080ti launch that's where the nothing new comment comes from I guess as for it being "lousy" who knows ?
    all I know its not 379usd
     
  13. snight01

    snight01 Master Guru

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    AMD drivers completely SUCK! no matter how good the card is, the drivers will always be horrible. Not talking from any bad vibes, or ill intent here, just FACTS! ... i've owned gpu's from them in the past and these rocked alot of vram, speed and all that bells and whistles. The drivers were horrible, couldnt even play diablo 3 or max payne 3 properly FFS! Went the less powerful nvidia card with not much vram and guessed what.. it worked perfectly!! no glitches.

    If amd can fix those damn drivers like people has been asking for decades maybe it'll be alright.
     
  14. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    AMD drivers in the past 2-3 years have been significantly improved and i'd argue are now on par with Nvidia stability/bug wise. I'd also argue that their interface is just flat out better than what Nvidia is doing.

    To all the people going to quote this and go "OH MY GOD THE NVCP IS PERFECT, PERFECT LAYOUT, NOW FLUFF, SO GREAT, LOVE IT" you're wrong. It's a bad interface, it's garbage on touchscreens (which nvidia puts its products in) it's slow as hell despite after every driver release people saying "THE CLICK LAG IS GONE!!11!" geforce experience is garbage and the fact that the two are separate apps and one requires login is embarrassing.
     
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  15. snight01

    snight01 Master Guru

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    never used or installed geforce experience really but sometimes to see game optimizations, either way, we need amd for nvidia to get better tho. AND ... i only use the nvidia control pantel to put on max performance and sometimes vsync on.

    I doubt that, with the drivers mention.. i've been hearing that for a long time now. everytime i give them a try its terrible. but we'll see how this works out...
     

  16. Celcius

    Celcius Member Guru

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    A few random thoughts regarding the Radeon VII and Jensen:

    I was glad to see that AMD FINALLY ditched the radial-fan, blower-style cooler that has cursed every reference card they've launched since end of WW II. True, they may have had no real choice but to do so this time around, but thank heavens anyway. (Question: so what is an AIB-partner going to offer to differentiate it's products?)

    Sort of related to the above, I am once again puzzled at any criticism, at this late date, levied against GCN's well-established reputation regarding power. To me, this is like someone growing up in the Pacific Northwest of the USA and being gobsmacked to look out the window and see that it is raining. Let the expectations of a green GCN go, people; it ain't gonna happen.

    AnandTech is reporting 128 ROPs for Vega VII; that doesn't seem at all right to me. I thought 64 was all that was possible, and 64 was what was claimed for the Instinct MI60. Probably just CES burnout.

    I see the VII as simply a re-purposed Instinct card; re-clocked and re-packaged with an appropriate cooling solution. There wasn't likely any time or money in the budget to re-mix these into an 8Gb version, and then sell them at a lower price-point. (I'm not at all sure one can simply fuse-off defective HBM stacks.) Clearly, there will be those who can truly leverage 16Gb of VRAM, but I don't see them as being your typical, average gamer. I don't find either the Radeon VII, or the RTX 2080 as being a good value. Historically, nothing in a gaming system is more likely to be shown the door after awhile than the video card. $700 USD is way past my tolerance level given that reality. However, price aside, they may well be terrific graphic cards otherwise.

    The charge that Vega VII, or any other GPU, is a poor choice due to being old technology never makes any sense to me. Ultimately, you're buying a level of performance, not a slab of silicon with this-or-that name. Personally, I don't care if they hang a steam engine on a card if it does what I want it to do, at a price I'm prepared to pay.

    I'm not sure which is more surprising; Jensen's comments or the publicity they're receiving. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to throw a bit of shade on your competitor's products. But, one should choose your words carefully, if only due to the attention they receive, as we're witnessing here. I don't know the mood or tone that Jensen used, but it was on the snarky side of the ledger. I'd be curious to discover just how well the RTX 2080 is actually selling.

    A few people have mentioned AMD having some shabby marketing-related moments and mentioned Roy Taylor. Once again, this is my own speculation, but I think the less-than-classy public-relations reputation AMD had at times in the past is probably among the reasons Roy Taylor isn't an AMD employee any longer.
     
  17. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    Idk there is over like 35+ games announced for DLSS.. granted none of them are here yet (aside from FF) but that's a fair number of titles for a new technology limited to expensive cards.
     
  18. Amaze

    Amaze Ancient Guru

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    For sure there are some coming, but looking at the list critically, there's not really many big titles.
    Also Digital Foundry was not super impressed with the visual quality of it, but more with the framerate from what I remember. So we might not even see widespread enabling by the end-users, depending on preference.

    Either way, 5 years from now both these technologies could have matured into something amazing, who knows.
     
  19. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Omg denial is that really you? xD

    I thought I would never hear anything like that from you, nothing personal, but lately you've always nvidia this, nvidia that, chip this, chip that, top, top, perfection :D

    And I agree amd driver came a long way. While nv stuck in prehistoric, thank God we have that nvinspector
     
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  20. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    [​IMG]
     
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