NVIDIA Brings DX-R To Pascal GPUs with new driver

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. Aura89

    Aura89 Ancient Guru

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    It's a new technology, brought less then a year ago, and most game development takes far longer then 1 year to develop, many developers/publishers don't like adding things half-way through, it's risky, may add more to the development time, cause launch issues if a launch date has already been determined, etc. Tacking on ray tracing rather then implementing it from the beginning is not necessarily the smartest thing to do.

    It's a little difficult to say that it's easy or not, as yes, it's easy to implement, and if all hardware supported it and you didn't really have to worry about performance, then there wouldn't be any need to put in rasterized lighting, and only ray traced lighting. If this was the case, it would cut down costs quite a bit.

    But given that currently this is not the case and if a developer decides to do ray tracing they still have to do rasterization methods, it becomes a cost to implement over not.

    The hardware needs to become more out there and universal before ray tracing will technically cost less (then rasterization) and be "easy" to implement. And this likely will not happen until consoles natively, and effectively, support ray tracing. One this is done, there will be no point to spending more money on rasterization methods, when it looks worse, and takes more time and money to implement and perfect.

    It makes sense that until then, there may not be a ton of developers deciding to put ray tracing into their games. Other then hoping their extra time and effort gets them more money then they spent on it BECAUSE people wanted to see it ray traced, what is the point?

    My point in the end is this: It's an added addition, which means it's an added cost to implement, and that's not to be mistaken with being "difficult" to implement, one of the major points of ANY kind of ray tracing is how much EASIER it is to implement since you no longer have to manually put fake light sources everywhere just to make the scenes not look like there are black holes everywhere. This is by definition EASIER and LESS COSTLY, but will only really matter on those fronts when rasterization methods of lighting are no longer implemented in games, until then, regardless if "easy" or not, it's added cost, which means many developers, and more importantly publishers, won't bother.
     
  2. Andrew LB

    Andrew LB Maha Guru

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    what on earth gave you the impression that the 2080ti is for the "average gamer"? The most commonly purchased card in a series I would argue is what is purchased by the 'average gamer'. That being the case, according to the most recent steam hardware survey here are the percentages of all video cards the most recent nV cards account for.

    RTX 2070: 0.65%
    RTX 2080: 0.50%
    RTX 2060: 0.27% (new this month on the chart)
    RTX 2080ti: 0.26%

    So even though the RTX 2070 is the most commonly owned RTX card, i'd be willing to wager that by next month the RTX 2060 will have caught up. But regardless, you can get an RTX 2070 for around $500 here in SoCal and an RTX 2060 for about $350. Last i checked, that is not unaffordable for the average gamer. And for someone who bought a very average card a few generations ago like the 750ti or 960, that would be a very nice upgrade.

    What i always find amusing is all the crybabies complaining about how a new top end card is a 'total failure' because the gains aren't enough for them to upgrade from the previous flagship card that is currently in their PC. Well no s#*t stupid! Try doing what the vast majority of consumers do and skip one or two generations and you'll suddenly realize that is a great value. Those of you who buy the flagship every year think nVidia and AMD should make their card performance roadmap match your buying habits but that's just not gonna happen. Everything is based around the bulk of their sales (average gamer cards) in a way that they get a substantial boost when they upgrade ever other gen.
     
  3. nizzen

    nizzen Maha Guru

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    @stereoman

    Mgpu works great in the new Tombraider game with dx12 and dxr! The scaling is very good too with my 2x 2080ti.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  4. Undying

    Undying Ancient Guru

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  5. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    You're missing the point. The average gamer comment was just in response to the idea that if someone can afford it that something isn't "unaffordable" which is nonsense because then nothing is ever technically unaffordable.

    The 2080Ti price slid outside even the realm of enthusiasts compared to previous generations. You see evidence of this in community backlash, an objective comparison of the cost for performance compared to previous gens, and the CEO of Nvidia literally stating sales are slow because people are waiting for lower price points. Just because there are lower tiers of graphics cards that are affordable or wealthy people that find the price of the 2080Ti acceptable doesn't invalidate that. If they did you might as well just remove unaffordable from the dictionary because nothing would ever fit the definition.

    No one used the word total failure, no one in this thread is even crying about it. Someone having a different opinion of you doesn't make them stupid. People just feel the performance exceeded the expected price for cards in each tier. That's it - it's not a big deal, I don't get why you have to write an angry poem about it.

    There are plenty of indie games in the announced list of RTX games coming. The Unreal forums show tons of indie developers playing with the tech - moreso now that it's available on Pascal and the engine supports it out of the box (beta)

    Yeah, read my next few posts after that one.

    I mean its pretty easy to implement. I was able to setup a scene with basic RT in about five minutes in Unreal. It's just a combination of devs not wanting to spend the time on a feature that's only available for RTX users and the fact that up until a month or so ago wasn't even available in any of the major engines. Once 4.22 comes out + w/e build of Unity, I think you'll see the number of games with it increase.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  6. alanm

    alanm Ancient Guru

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    Cool, that explains the dearth of RT titles. Do you expect the crippling performance penalty to continue with these new engines?
     
  7. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Well in the shop where I work there is a very rare rtx2080 purchase, 2080ti basically none.. maybe 2-3 in 3months.

    Mostly 1660, 2060 and few 2070 here and there..
     
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  8. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    Yes but I think it's worth it.

    Digital artists are essentially rubbing up against the wall of what's physically possible using traditional rasterization techniques. They have all these hacks, gimmicks, methods that are strewn together all to create the illusion of what light should be doing. All those things are getting increasingly more complex, increasingly harder to integrate and result of them, the "image quality", is essentially plateauing. RT kind of supersedes all that - right now it's complicated because we're still just on the cusp of performance with it.. we still need a few tricks to reduce impact, that's where machine learning comes in (use less ray casts and denoise the scene) and other optimization methods (decrease quality with distance, simplify the BVH representation, single bounce, etc) - but eventually RT will just be the default method and as the performance increases one by one those optimizations won't be necessary. Quality will go up way further than raster could ever bring us and complexity and integration "cost" will go down because the algorithms are simply mirroring what light would do in real life. Grab some good materials shove them in a scene and boom thing looks like real life.. you're not spending 3 months writing some hacked up GI/Diffuse shader or playing with lightmaps all day because your outside directional light is leaking through your geometry in a bunch of places.

    Plus there will be advancements in hardware, raycast collision algorithms, AI denosiing that will make the impact less noticeable. Eventually you won't even get raster based games anymore so you won't even know what the performance impact is regardless.

    Yeah it sucks now because DXR/Raytracing is somewhat limited to Nvidia only and the cost of those cards is restrictive but 5-6 years from now it's just going to be like AO or tessellation or any other similar technique that was once novel but became an expected feature.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
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  9. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    You need DX11 for SLI which doesnt support DXR.
    DX12 only supports mGPU which needs direct support in the game, there is no method to enable it via the video driver.
     
  10. Yxskaft

    Yxskaft Maha Guru

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    I might have missed it if it has been mentioned already, but Shadow of the Tomb Raider supports DX12 multi GPU, so that's one game Pascal Sli users could try with DXR enabled. There's even a free demo with the first mission of the game.
     

  11. Undying

    Undying Ancient Guru

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    Thats not so strange. 2070 looks very appealing. Its the only card i would consider from nvidia. It has enough horsepower and enough vram.
    I think some of the cheapo models can be found below 500Eur. Hows the prices in your shop?
     
  12. Xtreme1979

    Xtreme1979 Maha Guru

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    Unfortunately, the demo doesn't support any DXR features. At least it didn't two weeks ago when I tried to test them.
     
  13. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Around 550-600e give or take..
     
  14. Steppenwolf

    Steppenwolf New Member

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    I have a pretty good feeling that this is a marketing gimmick. After the initial controversial launch of RTX and its significant price increase, enabling ray tracing on older cards with lackluster performance seems like a good way to demonstrate the "value" over the past generation. What better way to convince people with a high-end GPU already running everything at 60+ fps to buy a new card?
     
  15. ThEcLiT

    ThEcLiT Master Guru

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  16. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Only that right now, we don't know if they're using DXR or AMD raytracing. If they're doing the latter, it will be a second standard again. We have to see how this develops...
     

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