Nvidia 337.50 vs Mantle thoughts & Opinions

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by (.)(.), Apr 8, 2014.

  1. (.)(.)

    (.)(.) Banned

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    Nvidia 337.50 vs Mantle thoughts & Opinions

    As per a comment from PhazeDelta1,

    I've been having the same questions etc running through my head, not just because of this driver, but for along time now. So to keep the actual driver thread for 337.50 clean and about benches etc and free from off topic-ness, i thought id start this one to see what others think.

    To start off, here's my 2 cents:

    I've spent a few of the last major releases telling myself that its the developers with a problem and shody ports and not Nvidia with driver issues, though i've always had my doubts about it being completely the developers fault. Then this driver comes along and pretty much just prove my point about performance being intentionally held back.
    Games like AC4 and Thief, BF4 that were previously stuttery to the point of not worth playing, regardless of hardware, as lowering settings didnt alleviate low fps as is would in other games.

    Theres more i want to add, but now that im here, its gone from my head.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  2. SLI-756

    SLI-756 Banned

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    it's not a 'driver improvement' it's a driver refresh.
    this driver slots right into windows OS (win8.1 at least) and the difference is even felt on desktop.
    these things take time, those hotel dwellers were perhaps first with the close to the metal idea and perhaps not, personally I dig mantle and I also dig the new nvidia /Microsoft handshake.
    I understand these handshakes take time, bf4 > windows8 handshake for ex. that wasn't an improvement that was a refresh.
     
  3. thefunkyone

    thefunkyone Active Member

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    Mantle probably did cause Nvidia to release these optimizations earlier than they had planned, but the optimizations would have arrived anyway since they are in competition with AMD and anything which improves Nvidias cards over Amd's would make sense from a business stand point.

    Also i doubt Nvidia has been sitting on these for a while as they have been working with microsoft on DX12 and i would say that they got some insider help on how to optmise DX as part of the deal ! ;)
     
  4. (.)(.)

    (.)(.) Banned

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    Im just going to install these drivers and see what changes with my setup, be back soon.
     

  5. UnclePappi

    UnclePappi Banned

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    D/L'ing now and I'm gonna do a few before n afters cause at 1440p with a 680 I sure could use any performance boost they can muster. By all benchmarks I've seen so far it looks like almost every game is getting about 5% boost with high end cpus. Around 10% for lower end cpus. Not bad for an across the board improvement.
     
  6. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    These driver optimizations are not a replacement for Mantle. Mantle is an optimization of the API. These new drivers are an optimization of the implementation of an inherently slower API.

    However, we can have a situation where a heavily optimized implementation of a slower API can win against a poor implementation of a faster API :)

    In any event, I don't think we would be seeing this if it weren't for Mantle. So, good job AMD for forcing NVidia to work harder on driver optimization :)

    I assume though that AMD will improve their drivers too. Mantle is still new, so I suppose there's a lot they can optimize in their implementation of it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  7. southamptonfc

    southamptonfc Ancient Guru

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    I don't think Nvidia would've necessarily put any effort into this unless Mantle had arrived. Lack of competition breeds laziness.

    Trust me, I know how software development works, optimizations are pretty much the last thing that anybody cares about and don't happen unless forced to.
     
  8. Barry J

    Barry J Ancient Guru

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    I believe there is no VS, Mantle is one way and 337.50 is a completely different way.

    Ok they both increase FPS but are completely different approaches Mantle is young and developing and should get better as it matures, it would have been quicker if they had made it open to everyone and the failure to do this could be its downfall. 337.50 is a mature well developed driver it should be good and I expect it to get better but imagine this driver running through an open mantle and the increases that would bring, maybe that should be the question. It could be AMD know that nvidias drivers are better and would not want NVidia beating there hardware with there own api...... just athought
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  9. (.)(.)

    (.)(.) Banned

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    Sorry, my use of 'vs' is wrong. I didnt mean to compare the two as obviously one is a driver and the other is an API of sorts limited to only.. 2 game?

    Disregard the 'vs'.
     
  10. pokuly

    pokuly Active Member

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    I think it is time to rethink this directx **** alltogether. How many times did we have to upgrade Windows only to be able to use the latest directx?
    Now i see benchmarks and surprise, surprise Battlefield with 11.1 needs again another upgrade to Windows 8 to get full speed.
    I am fed up that now that mantle comes around Nvidia and Microsoft suddenly opens up the performance box as if there where secrets kept so far.
    It is time for a free gaming plattform based on linux where every update will come without cost for us!
     

  11. RealNC

    RealNC Ancient Guru

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    OpenGL already exposes DX11 features on older OSes (for example, you can have tessellation on Windows XP.) New OpenGL versions run on older OSes too, unlike DX where MS forces you to buy a new OS to get a newer DX.

    If OpenGL can do that, why don't game studios switch to OpenGL instead?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  12. Denial

    Denial Ancient Guru

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    Because OpenGL is a compatibility nightmare. There's like 30 different extensions to implement the same thing across a variety of hardware and most of those extensions have little to no documentation. And because Nvidia/AMD only have a few people dedicated to it they provide little to no support to devs who are using the platform.
     
  13. sunkid

    sunkid Master Guru

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    Either way you are calling it, driver improvement or driver refresh, it doesn't matter. It's the same thing.

    One really needs to be very naive (for the sake of not using insulting words) to think that this DOES NOT have any connection with AMD's latest "moves" (Mantle). Of course it's a "response". It's a different approach, that is way cheaper than AMD's counterpart. Does it have the desired effect? Judging by most of nVidia's fans and fanboys, looks like it has.

    Could and should have this been done way earlier? Of course! Why it hasn't been done? Well... you are free to find alone the answer. :)
     
  14. Benny_26

    Benny_26 Banned

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    Sorry but i dont know what your talking about, maybe its your SLI, try actually disconnecting one card (to enable full PCI express speed for the main) and see again.
    Been playing B4 on my rig since day one and had no stuttering issues, before i got this 780Ti i had ATI 7970GHZ ed and same thing (just slower at quad HD resolution)

    BUT here is a quote from AC4 dev and i think it reflect 90% of devs that make multiplatform games

     
  15. Keesberenburg

    Keesberenburg Master Guru

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    New tests.
    BF4 WIN 7 64. Metro map from outsite to the metro station. Before min 55 fps now min 70 fps.

    Sieg of Shanghi have the most improvements like mantle.
    It does make less cpu overhead i think?
     

  16. EdKiefer

    EdKiefer Ancient Guru

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    Sure, these drivers and next ones are trying to reduce CPU overhead. that is why like Mantle you see more improvement in MP with BF4 .

    On Nvidia optimizing, just go back to look at all readme's from previous releases . They always have been doing optimizations to games . The difference is these changes are global , not specific to any one game (so they claim)

    One thing that is going to be important as we move forward with Dx12, Mantle (low level coding) . This will change how drivers perform . It will be the game dev's that need to code the game specific low level calls, not GPU makers as is now . It will be up to them now and not so much AMD, Nvidia or Intel if they choose to go that route .
    No problem for AAA titles I guess as they have $ to support that but again its more work over an above the bug's they normal need to address ,so more work there .

    So in fall back its good Nvidia doing this, if dev's don't use all low level they can they can fall back to decent Dx11 calls as now .
     
  17. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    I would say yes, they saw a little pressure and made some extra homework.

    I bet it would take much longer if there was no Mantle on the Horizon.


    I also asked nv driver team ~2months ago (opened a ticket), will nvidia make mantle driver etc, but never got a response, even though they specifically say max 24hrs to respond.
    3-4 weeks later we started to see all these leaks about this so called magic driver out of nowhere.
     
  18. Mike2004

    Mike2004 Member

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    Tried these drivers and at the end of every map of BF4 I crashed to desktop so went back to 332.21. My second computer in the den the drivers run fine on it. Strange
     
  19. bboy-mass

    bboy-mass Master Guru

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    Fresh install????
     
  20. Mike2004

    Mike2004 Member

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    Not fresh, just a registry wipe and "clean install" checked off in the NVidia install box.

    I've swapped out lots of drivers since the release of Bf4 and never had a driver related issue such as this before. My game hasn't crashed in months, until yesterday.
     

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