No More CSAA in Maxwell GPUs

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by lowenz, Mar 15, 2014.

  1. Glacia_k

    Glacia_k New Member

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    Exactly. People doesn't seem to realize that anti-aliasing IS bluring, if people want games to be "as sharp as possible" then they should just play with no AA, since that's as sharp as you can get. Times of pure MSAA are over, if you can't handle slight blur you're gonna be disappointed this gen.

    You can use use custom resolve with CSAA too (CSAA is just faster MSAA), if you add something like Unreal Engine TSAA to the mix you'll have movie grade image quality with minimum performance hit.
     
  2. Raiga

    Raiga Maha Guru

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    Nope, Anti Aliasing isn't Blur.

    If you think its blur, then you have very less information of what the technique actually IS*.
     
  3. OrdinaryOregano

    OrdinaryOregano Master Guru

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    (Disclaimer: Limited Knowledge, feel free to correct)

    It's not exactly 'blur' but it's basically a technique to make the output image not have jagged edges which happens because displays use/represent the data in pixels.

    If we're gonna talk about OBJECTIVE image quality and use an objective quality assessment metric like SSIM then all forms of aliasing reduce image quality there's no question about it. But we use AA for the subjective image quality which looks better to us.

    Blurring is one method to combat that, there are others of course super sampling for example. Point is, it all depends on what YOU like best since technically all forms of AA reduce objective image quality and what's left is the subjective quality for the user to decide.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
  4. Glacia_k

    Glacia_k New Member

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    Actually i know what I'm talking about. If you want to know what aliasing and anti-aliasing is just use Wikipedia.

    Well yeah, anti-aliasing use near pixels to improve overall quality. There is no way of combating aliasing without affecting near pixels, i.e. it's blur.

    BTW, I've noticed that when people talk about "blurry anti-aliasing" they usually mean "blurry textures" i.e. texture anti-aliasing. That's why everyone thinks that MSAA was not blurry, because MSAA doesn't affect textures at all. SSAA, FXAA, TXAA on the other hand...
     

  5. OrdinaryOregano

    OrdinaryOregano Master Guru

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    I wasn't contradicting you
     
  6. Terepin

    Terepin Master Guru

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    SSAA is causing blur? What's next, higher resultion is causing pixelation?
     
  7. GhostXL

    GhostXL Ancient Guru

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    SSAA does cause blur in some games, but the blur is very minimal compared to FXAA and TXAA.

    Out of those 3, SSAA is by far my favorite.

    Post Process AA sucks no matter how you look at it overall. I hate that blurry image.

    That is why I personally can't wait for resolutions like 4K + where AA will not have to be used. You could get away with 2xMSAA most of the time.

    And by 4K + I mean machines powerful enough to handle it at east at regular consumer level for standards.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2014
  8. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    Will 4k make a difference when it comes to temporol aliasing though?

    Might give it a shot with some downsampling, hopefully i should be able to judge from the slideshow.
     
  9. Glacia_k

    Glacia_k New Member

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    I've seen people that claimed this multiple times on multiple forums, including this one. When you render at higher resolution you need to interpolate it to your monitor resolution, and guess what, it cause blur too. Just try to downscale any picture in photoshop and look for details.
    We have phones with higher DPI than monitors will ever be and unfortunately it doesn't help much. Unless someone will invent monitor with infinite amount of pixels, we''ll have to use AA.
     
  10. Terepin

    Terepin Master Guru

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    If anything, SSAA removes blur caused by FXAA, or any post-process AA. Supersampling is basically the same as downsampling, so I can't imagine how higher resolution can cause blur.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014

  11. Mangix

    Mangix Active Member

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    Usually when anti-aliasing, pixels are upscaled using a bilinear upscaler which is a blurry algorithm. That's why supersampled AA tends to be really blurry. Using Bicubic or Lanczos would be better but it costs a lot in terms of performance.
     
  12. F1refly

    F1refly Ancient Guru

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    Shimmering and crawling never bothered me at all, so long as the jaggy edges can be smoothed out some I'm happy even if it's blurry.
     
  13. Terepin

    Terepin Master Guru

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    In which game exactly is SSAA blurry?
     
  14. Raiga

    Raiga Maha Guru

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    Whaaaaa..waat?

    Then take Sweet FX and apply a 'Blur' Filter (which doesn't have any re-sampling component).

    I'll be amazed if the image doesn't have both; Aliasing and a loss of image quality over it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014
  15. Jodeth

    Jodeth Member

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    SMAA is a mess too. It stops me from using ShadowPlay. It also breaks the brightness in some games (e.g. The Walking Dead).
     

  16. Canzah

    Canzah Banned

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    CSAA is literally MSAA but with less color samples than cv samples.
    That's why it's faster, but also worse than MSAA.
    CSAA is absolutely **** for SGSSAA due to the lower number of color samples, unless you use way higher CSAA with matching amount of color samples.
    So while 8x MSAA is what you need for 8x SGSSAA, you'd need 16xQ CSAA in this case.

    With 4K, you pretty much have no need for AA anymore other than maybe a light shader based AA like SMAA.
     
  17. Xtreme512

    Xtreme512 Master Guru

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    TXAA 2X is for me very good, actually it is the only AA I use if its available.. It was amazing in Watch Dogs and Crysis 3.

    I dont notice the blur and I think TXAA with its everything adds a more real cinematic experience in games. Thats why I love it.

    SMAA is also good but it doesnt have that "cinematic" feel.

    For the last AA technique that NVIDIA implemented, I havent used it yet so I cant tell anything about it.
     
  18. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Then you're blind :p, it adds a ton of blur in any game so far, yes even 2xTXAA, nvm 4xTXAA.

    The secret world - no go
    CODBO2, Ghosts - no go
    WD - no go
    Batman - no go


    And the list goes on, have quite a few games that can use it. And all look bad and lose texture/reflections detail.



    MFAA + MSAA + TrAA is a much better combo. Heck even just MSAA + TrAA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
  19. Smooth Operator

    Smooth Operator Member Guru

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    I might have been able to accept TXAA with a sharpening component to tone done the general blur and remove all aliasing as it works perfectly when there is no motion on things like ropes in AC4 which none of the other AA options resolve properly.

    However during motion the temporal component which is meant to be the good part about it I personally find horrendous. You can see it actively completely blurring entire parts of the scene to hide your usual shimmering and creating ghosting instead which I find far more noticeable, it's like Halo: Reach.
     
  20. Anarion

    Anarion Ancient Guru

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    In other words, you love specular aliasing. :eyebrows:

    Personally I'd rather take slightly softer image over specular/shader aliasing any day. Also the higher the resolution, the better TXAA looks like. Same applies to FXAA (although FXAA could use some upgrading, diagonals are bad and there are other issues too).
     

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