Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon' started by OnnA, Jul 9, 2016.
GPU road @1.19.15h
Pro HBM_2 32GB @1.25h
Qutoe from WCCF
AMD demos 7nm Vega GPU is sampling right now, launching in 2H18
The new Vega Instinct will be based on the 7nm process which offers 35%more performance since the last generation node (14nm) and has twice the power efficiency meaning it can do that in half the wattage.
Density has also doubled allowing for either drastically smaller die sizes or twice as big GPUs.
The company gave a very short – but working – demo for the 7nm as well, showcasing its rendering capability. This is something that will allow it to make headway into the ray tracing market that NVIDIA CUDA currently occupies. The company also revealed that the card is sampling to parnteres right now and will be officially launching sometime in the second half of 2018.
Considering NVIDIA does not have a 7nm processor right now (Volta is 12nm) this represents one of the few times the company has overtaken its competitor (on paper) as far as roadmap goes and represents a significant leap as far as power and performance efficiency goes – which is pretty improtant for the server and data center market.
Cost and volume were two things that were not mentioned but considering 7nm is the very bleeding edge of fabs right now – yields can’t be all that pretty. In other words, this card is going to be expensive as hell.
You can see the render benchmark demo of the 7nm Vega over here:
Let me start by saying I encourage everyone to do their own calculations. As you know side-by-side comparisons are never accurate, so take this with a grain of salt.
The main question is how big is 7nm Vega package. If the package is the same as 14nm Vega’s, then comparing them is easy. At 4Gamer we found a picture of Lisa Su presenting 7nm EPYC CPU with 7nm Vega in both hands. This gave us the opportunity to measure SP3 package and compare sizes. Since we know SP3 package is 58.5 x 75.4 mm, we can quickly conclude that 7nm Vega package is roughly ~47.8mm on each side. This means the package is likely identical to 14nm Vega (47.5mm). From here we compare pixel density and the rest is simple.
It’s worth reminding you that 14nm Vega dimensions are officially 486 mm2, while measurements from the press gave it a 510-ish mm2 die size. We are going to include this margin of error into our quick calculations and we end up with 285-298 mm2 7nm Vega die size.
That said, 7nm Vega is likely under 300 mm2.
I really like the fact that AMD are bring out 7nm GPU's and CPU's in the same time frame. Good time to retire my 6900k and Rampage Black Edition 10.
AMD's New Graphics Engineer Pledges Yearly GPU Releases to Make PCs Fun Again
AMD's new graphics engineer, David Wang, is pledging to release GPU's yearly to make PC's fun again. Also, at Computex he showed the unchanged AMD GPU roadmap that shows a tick-tock like cadence for releases.
However, while his statement is nice to hear, I'll withhold judgment until I see AMD do what he's promising. It's not that I don't trust him, but AMD has been a bit lethargic lately with their GPU releases.
Anyway, I hope he's right because I'd like to see AMD push market leader NVIDIA a bit more.
PC enthusiasts who are fed up waiting for new GeForce cards from Nvidia may be more excited by AMD.
David Wang, AMD’s new graphics chief, said he’s committed to delivering a new product every year, like clockwork.
Interestingly, Wang, the senior vice president of engineering for AMD’s Radeon Technologies Group, seemed to blame the AI-oriented Radeon Instinct as at least somewhat of a distraction.
That’s somewhat ironic, given that the 7nm Vega GPU that AMD showed off Wednesday local time at Computex will be used for the Instinct series.
During his time on stage at Computex, Wang showed off AMD’s (unchanged) graphics roadmap, stretching out a full three years from 2017’s Vega chip through an undisclosed 7nm+ architecture debuting in 2020. In fact, Wang’s roadmap should look familiar to anyone who’s followed Intel over the years, as AMD’s graphics roadmap essentially follows a traditional “tick-tock” model: a new architecture followed by a process adjustment or shrink, and vice versa.
Volume to keep GPUs on the shelves will be the big challenge.
ASRock Radeon RX Vega 56 coming to Germany?
ASRock is a new player in graphics card business. Last month company representative told Tom’s Hardware that AMD will not allow the company to enter the European market (at least not yet).
This decision was met with a lot of criticism which was put, without any hesitation, on AMD shoulders. ASRock later issued a press release which said it was their own business decision. Whether that PR was a ‘request’ from AMD or ASRock’s own marketing, we will never know.
Interestingly enough, that PR is no longer valid because the manufacturer has plans to enter European market after all, as confirmed directly by ASRock to our friends over at HardwareLuxx, who visited their booth at Computex.
HardwareLuxx (machine translation):
On our stand visit, we were shown the product range of the AMD cards and confirmed on demand that we will also be represented in Germany from July.
The first graphics card to be offered in Germany will be Radeon RX Vega 56. Company confirmed that RX Vega 64 is also coming, but did not specify when.
So far no confirmation on full custom models has been given, but our sources claim that such graphics cards are in the works.
The Radeon RX Vega 56 from ASRock is not pure reference model, it comes with a custom backplate and non-standard frequency. The card itself is part of Phantom Gaming series.
ASRock’s Phantom Gaming RX Vega 56 will be available in July.
THX to VideocardZ and others...
More competition can only be good for us.
Vega Nano is "available today" - what does this mean? Surely not in stores? This card has me genuinely excited!
Pretty sweet if true.
At this rate AMD should be happy to showcase a new driver on E3.
Spoiler: xTreME GamER
Exclusive: The AMD Inside Story, Navi GPU Roadmap And The Cost Of Zen To Gamers
In 2016, AMD unveiled its first roadmap that officially contained the Navi GPU. It was scheduled to come soon after 7nm Vega and was supposed to be the next-generation GPU and land sometime in 2018. AMD held its Computex 2018 recently, to great success, but the one thing that bugged me was the lack of any new graphics cards for gamers.
Navi was also implicitly pushed back, a year at the very least, and the roadmap changed to something more tentative. While in Taiwan for Computex 2018, I had the opportunity to talk to sources intimately familiar with the entire situation and discovered there was a very interesting story to be told – one which made everything fit in place perfectly.
Navi was originally scheduled for release in 2018.
The first thing I will point out before I go onto the juicy details is that it is essential to understand AMD’s contextual backdrop – both in terms of talent and finances. The company has a market capitalization $15.25 billion and has struggled to turn a profit. In comparison, competitors like NVIDIA and Intel are giants with market capitalizations of $158.2 billion and $254.1 billion respectively and net income in the billions of dollars as well. The same goes for talent as well, it costs money and AMD has a relatively smaller pool of (very) talented engineers that can work on a given project at one time as compared to its much bigger rivals.
Lisa’s dilemma: A CPU comeback with semi-custom centric roadmaps or maintain expensive leadership in graphics for gamers
Pundits that have been following AMD’s progress will almost unanimously agree on one thing – AMD is a company that is cash-starved. With a finite flow of resources, the company has to be very careful of how it allocates the precious pool of R&D and how it does so – usually dictates its performance for the next couple of years.
This is also where our story begins. Kyle Bennet of HardOCP first reported a rift between the now-Radeon Technologies Group department and the company’s CEO Lisa Su quite some time ago. The issue was simple, Raja Koduri (the RTG boss) wanted more autonomy and there were rumors that they wanted to spin off the graphics department completely. Well, we now have the full story in-hand and the issue went much deeper.
It turns out that Lisa Su was focused primarily on bringing back AMD’s CPU side of things, and establishing a strong semi-custom GPU side. Maintaining leadership in the descrete graphics market (gamers) is a costly business and with the finite amount of resources the company had, something had to give.
Lisa packaged the graphics department neatly into Radeon Technologies Group and gave control of that to Raja Koduri, but at the same time devoted 2/3rds of the talent on-hand for RTG to develop the next semi-custom solution – which was Navi for Sony. The P&L of RTG was also not handed over to the group head and that meant they were effectively left with 1/3rd of the engineering talent devoted to making a graphics card for gamers and almost no control over their own finances.
The result of this choice was that AMD was spectacularly succesfull at its x86 comeback and also locked in Apple and another client on the semi custom side – the cost, however, was something that gamers paid. Luckily for AMD, this is around the same time that the cryptocurrency market started booming and it came into a windfall as Vega turned out to be great mining GPU and started to sell like hot cakes.
AMD built Vega for Apple and it is building Navi for the Sony PS5 – which is expected to launch in 2020
The reason why Lisa did that was simple: semi-custom applications is a lucrative business. The margins are low, but the volume is high and the net income is consistent. Catering to gamers was not part of the win-condition; making AMD a viable, financially robust company was. Here is a fun fact: Vega was designed primarily for Apple and Navi is being designed for Sony – the PS5 to be precise.
This meant that the graphics department had to be tied directly to the roadmap that these semi-custom applications followed. Since Sony needed the Navi GPU to be ready by the time the PS5 would launch (expectedly around 2020) that is the deadline they needed to work on. Similarly, for Vega, Apple’s timeline is what actually dictated the release of the GPU and not the other way around. AMD’s Radeon graphics cards were intricately tied to the industry’s semi-custom roadmaps by design and that is something that a lot of people disagreed with. This is also what, I suspect, precipitated the departure of key executives including the RTG boss, Raja Koduri.
She also had a different kind of vision for the graphics department – the professional side of things as a star player. The gaming market has lower margins and a higher cost of leadership. Not only do you need to have performance leaps after every year or so, you need to achieve economies of scale to bring them down to a lower enough cost for gamers to be able to afford them – and that can only happen if your yields are completely in-line. 7nm is the bleeding edge of process technology, it is roughly equivalent to Intel’s 10nm process and it goes without saying that yields are less than ideal on this node.
The world’s first 7nm GPU demo that AMD showcased at Computex last week was always meant for the professional GPU market and not for gamers. This is the market that can afford a much higher cost for the same SKU and allows the company to make do with low yields. But Lisa Su also said that “7nm GPUs are coming to gamers” so we should see 7nm Vega sometime next year right? As it turns out, that isn’t what she meant.
Roadmap: AMD’s Navi 10 will arrive in late 2019 and will be the first non-GCN GPU, no Vega 7nm for gamers
Probably one of the biggest revelations in my chats was that Vega will not be arriving for gamers – ever. As I mentioned earlier, AMD is building Navi for Sony and it is their deadlines that matter to Lisa right now, nothing else. This is also why the company changed its “official roadmap” to a very tentative structure – a far cry from the concrete and quantitative ones it used to use before. Also keep in mind that all roadmaps are for Radeon and since the Instinct lineup is part of the Radeon brand, you cannot differentiate the gaming side from the professional side anymore.
Here is the crux of what I learned:
Vega 7nm will not be coming to gamers.
Navi 10 will be the first Navi part to arrive and will be landing sometime in 2H 2019 or early 2020, depending on a couple of factors. The performance level of this part will be equivalent to Vega and it will be a small GPU based on 7nm.
Navi 14 will follow Navi 10 soon after.
Navi 20 is going to be the true high-end GPU built on the 7nm node and as things stand right now, you are tentatively looking at it landing sometime around 2021.
Navi will also be the first architecture to transition away from GCN (and along with it, the 4096 SP / 64 CU limit that is inherent to the uArch implementation.)
‘Next-Gen’ architecture is the uArch formerly codenamed KUMA internally before AMD decided it didn’t like that name too much (oops) and will be based on the same brand new major architecture that AMD rolls out with Navi.
Remember when Lisa said that ‘7nm GPUs will be arriving for gamers’? Well, notice she never said 7nm Vega will be arriving for gamers – the GPU in question was Navi. Navi 10 to be more specific, and from what I know, this will not be a high-end part. It looks like NVIDIA won’t be facing any competition on the gaming side of things from Radeon even in 2019.
Navi 14 will be the immediate successor to Navi 10 and not much was revealed about this part except that it will come after 10.
Navi 20 is the GPU that you are waiting for and will be a true high-end gaming GPU manufactured on the 7nm process by AMD. The downside? it won’t be coming anytime soon. In fact, our source stated it could take as long as 2021 before it sees the light of day.
I'll take that with a grain of salt seeing as it is WCCFTech. Surely we aren't going to have to wait until 2021 for a true performance GPU from AMD. They wouldn't do that to us.
^^ It's more like editiorial of some sort.
it's always good to have some new angles to consider.
We can have:
- Vega resfresh in 7nm with 4xHBM_2 (for best possible bandwidth)
- Navi 7nm Vega perf. class gpu for 250$
IF WCCFT article above is correct, then GCN is limited to 4096SP. Looks weird, but possible. Then 7nm gives just clock and power efficiency.
I was waiting for Navi anyway. But another 1.5 years on Fury X. I wonder how much I will be sacrificing on graphics settings by then.
Yeah, another 2 1/2 years minimum is quite a stretch. I was hoping for something late this year or early next. It is disappointing to hear.