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New Upcoming ATI/AMD GPU's Thread: Leaks, Hopes & Aftermarket GPU's Part 2

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon' started by WhiteLightning, Sep 28, 2018.

  1. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    AMD Reaffirms 7nm Based Ryzen 3000, EPYC Rome and Radeon Navi Graphics Cards Availability in Q3 2019

    [​IMG]

    AMD has reaffirmed the launch of their upcoming 7nm products, which include Ryzen 3000 CPUs, EPYC Rome server chips and AMD Radeon Navi graphics cards, in Q3 2019.
    All three product lines have their launch planned for Q3 2019 and AMD further confirmed availability during their annual shareholder meeting.

    The confirmation suggests that AMD is on-track for the launch of their next-generation 7nm based products which include the AMD Ryzen 3000 series processor for mainstream desktop PCs, EPYC Rome chips for servers and Radeon Navi graphics cards for gaming PCs.
    All three products will be featuring the TSMC process technology along with new architectures with Ryzen and EPYC being powered by the new Zen 2 CPU cores and Radeon Navi powered by a brand new GPU architecture that replaces its Vega based predecessors.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
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  2. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    AMD at Hot Chips 2019: Architectural Deep Dive into Zen 2 (3rd Gen Ryzen) CPU Core and Navi (Radeon) GPU Core


    AMD has announced that its CEO, Dr. Lisa Su, will be delivering a keynote at this year’s Hot Chips symposium which would include a session on their next-generation CPU and GPU cores.
    AMD’s announcement comes just weeks ahead of their Computex 2019 keynote where AMD will also introduce to public their 3rd Gen Ryzen CPUs and new Radeon GPUs.

    The Hot Chips Symposium on High-Performance chips will commence on 18th August with AMD planning to hold their own conference during the event on 19th August at Palo Alto at 1:45 PM PT.
    During the conference, AMD is expected to talk about two key architectures that are powering their next-generation CPU and GPU lineups, Zen 2 and Navi.

    Additionally, AMD will host Hot Chips sessions on the next generation “Zen 2” x86 CPU core and “Navi” GPU featuring 7nm process technology:

    • “Zen 2”: On Monday, Aug. 19 at 9:00 AM PT, AMD will provide a deep dive into the next generation 7nm “Zen 2” core architecture to be deployed in 3rd Generation Ryzen desktop processors and 2ndGeneration EPYC servers.
    • “Navi”: On Tuesday, Aug. 20 at 6:15 PM PT, AMD will provide a “Navi” GPU architecture and 7nm technology implementation presentation.
     
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  3. hemla

    hemla Member Guru

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    Does it mean that Navi won't be released on Jul 7?
     
  4. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Everything is possible. But schedule seems to be:
    Computex 27th of May: Ryzen and maybe taste of Navi
    E3 10th of June: Navi
    7. 7. availability
    Hot Chips: Deep technical dive about new things inside chips.
     
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  5. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    AMD Radeon Navi GPUs with 1 GHz Clock Speed and 8 GB Memory Spotted in 3DMark and AOTS Benchmarks
    Eng. sample no: 731F:C1 & 7310:00


    Two AMD Radeon Navi graphics cards have made a sudden appearance on 3DMark and AOTS benchmarks.
    The Navi based GPU variants were found by TUM_APISAK and it looks like we also have some early specifications for what look to be engineering samples running in test labs.

    The two AMD Navi GPU variants are not the same since they have a different device id. The variant which has the specifications featured on 3DMark is the ‘731F: C1’ and it comes with a clock speed of 1000 MHz and 8 GB of memory that is clocked in at 1250 MHz.
    Now what is interesting about this memory clock is that if we speculate that it’s GDDR5 based, then that would translate to 5 GHz which is quite low for a 256-bit variant that this card seems to be.

    This is where I am inclined to believe that the card is actually using GDDR6 memory interface with an effective clock speed of 10 GHz which is more likely.
    This would give the card a total of 320 GB/s bandwidth which is higher than AMD’s current mainstream flagship, the RX 590, that features 256 GB/s of bandwidth.
    No other details for this GPU are mentioned and neither is the performance but one thing is clear that this is a very early sample and like all other AMD GPUs we have seen in the past, the final GPU clocks would be higher than 1 GHz.

    The other AMD Radeon Navi variant is the ‘7310:00’ and this variant has no specs mentioned right now but it was spotted in the AOTS benchmark (2nd pic.).
    The same variant also appeared in GFXbench few months back and scored 1520 Frames (23.6 FPS) in the Aztec Ruins High Tier benchmark section and 3404 frames or 54.9 FPS in the Manhattan benchmark section.

    Now if we compare the scores to the competition, we will note that the Manhattan benchmark hits a 60 FPS limit on all cards and even the older GTX 960 which the AMD Navi variant is unable to do so making it seem like a low-end part.
    The card also has lower performance in Aztec Ruins benchmark but we can still consider this a very early sample test and probably an unoptimized driver to go along with it. Following are some graphics performance comparisons for this specific Navi variant against other cards (last pic.):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Goiur

    Goiur Master Guru

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    Any comparison with 1GHz Vega?
     
  7. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    After a 4 Year Leave, AMD Rejoins the Fortune 500 List

    The Fortune 500 lists the top 500 companies in the worold in terms of revenue. These are the most significant movers in the markets, be it of real estate, mining, hedge fund, or semiconductor nature (among others).
    AMD was out of the Fortune 500 back in 2015, when the company was struggling with its Buldozzer-based processors and had an increasingly small marketshare - and thus revenue - that Zen came on to save.
    Now, thanks to the efforts of everyone involved in the company, they've been listed again on the #460 spot.
     
  8. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    Sapphire Reps Leak Juicy Details on AMD Radeon Navi

    A Sapphire product manager and PR director, speaking to the Chinese press spilled the beans on AMD's upcoming Radeon Navi graphics card lineup.

    It looks like with Navi, AMD is targeting the meat of the serious gamer market, at two specific price points, USD $399 Singapur Dollar with a "Pro" (cut-down) product, and $499 Singapur Dollar with an "XT" (fully-fledged) product.

    AMD has two NVIDIA products in its crosshairs, the GeForce RTX 2070, and the RTX 2060.
    In the interview, the Sapphire rep mentioned "stronger than 2070", when talking about performance numbers, which we assume is for the Navi XT variant - definitely promising.
    The $399 Navi "Pro" is probably being designed with a performance target somewhere between the RTX 2060 and RTX 2070, so you typically pay $50 more than you would for an RTX 2060, for noticeably higher performance.

    Sapphire also confirmed that AMD's Navi does not have specialized ray-tracing hardware on the silicon, but such technology will debut with "next year's new architecture".
    They also suggested that AMD is unlikely to scale up Navi for the enthusiast segment, and that the Vega-based Radeon VII will continue to be the company's flagship product.
    On the topic of Radeon VII custom designs, Sapphire commented that "there is no plans for that".

    On the other hand, Sapphire is actively working on custom designs for the Navi architecture, and mentioned that "work on a "Toxic" version of Navi is complete, and it is watercooled".
    Many people have speculated that AMD will unveil Navi at its Computex keynote address on May 27.
    Sapphire confirmed that date, and also added that the launch will be on 7th of July, 2019.

    7.VII :p

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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  9. Exodite

    Exodite Ancient Guru

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    Let's hope that pricing is way off, otherwise Navi is likely DOA.

    The 2060 and 2070 are already too expensive for what they are, to the tune of $100 and $150 respectively, so if those are the targets then the $399/499 should be $199/299 or AMD will just get priced out of the market.

    I haven't read the interview but the 'meat' of the PC gaming market is the $150 to $250 price point, assuming you're talking about the consumer perspective.
     
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  10. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Guy talked about high-end of Navi. Not lowest GPUs. Secondly, if $500 Navi performs above RTX 2070 which costs same... (As that's what has been said.)
    Then you have reality of people who really do not want to buy nVidia's GPU and will buy at least competitively priced GPU from AMD.
    (Please understand that nVidia owns this market and sets prices. AMD lives in it. If they ever have 70% and more, I would say that they are setting prices.)

    And lastly, nVidia's prices are adequate to transistor count inside their GPUs. Performance per $ may not be exactly good upgrade, but that's not what sets price. There is production cost and profit has to be made.
    - - - -
    I do understand that people want good new things cheap. But if you have 25% of market, you have to make required profit on much lower count of GPU sales that one who has remaining 75%.

    If people jumped ship easily, all that would take would be undercut nVidia while having faster GPU. But that's not going to win market share anyway. Therefore AMD has to make choices which make sense from economic point of view.
     
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  11. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    500€ is overkill for midget navi chip any way you look at it, 2070 absurd price competitor or not.
     
  12. Exodite

    Exodite Ancient Guru

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    So not the cards releasing this year then?

    Because targeting the 2060/2070 with a new process and architecture would reasonably be midrange in 2019.

    I agree with everything you said regarding Nvidia vs. AMD, which is why this kind of pricing won't fly. Maybe they're forced into it, like how the Radeon 7 only made sense due to Nvidia pushing the pricing past $700 in the first place. Or perhaps AMD finally snapped and choose to acknowledge that nothing they offer will ever compete with Nvidia in consumer space anyway so they might as well get a few dollars out of it.

    Regardless you can't offer 2060/2070 performance at 2060/2070 prices and have it matter. That's been the issue with every graphics card released since 2016, getting the same performance at the same price as previous generations. Pushing absolute performance at the high end, regardless of price, isn't entirely irrelevant - only mostly. What I've been hoping for with Navi, and I wager I'm not alone, is a meaningful improvement in what constitutes midrange ($150 to $250) over what we've had since 2016.

    Keeping that in mind a price between $400 and $500 means that the performance is largely irrelevant, because it's not midrange to begin with.

    You say this isn't the entry-level products being discussed, which is fine.

    But if the cheaper cards end up offering 1660/1660Ti performance at 1660/1660Ti prices, or 570/580 performance at 570/580 prices, we're still dealing with the same problem.

    Navi needs to offer a meaningful push of performance in the $150 to $250 bracket, if it doesn't I'd argue that it's DOA because the rest of the market is already covered. Speaking from a PC addin-card perspective obviously, as the primary architecture of the next-generation consoles and (presumably) future AMD APUs it's going to be doing a lot of work in a wider perspective.
     
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  13. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    For Navi, it is High-End as it is not replacing Radeon 7. And as I wrote, there are going to be Navi based GPUs in that low cost range.
     
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  14. Exodite

    Exodite Ancient Guru

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    That's mostly semantics though.

    Look, I'm personally not upgrading now and when I do it's unlikely to be Nvidia regardless (though that has more to do with my personal feelings on the company than their products) so this is in no way a dig at AMD in general. But if they can't offer something that's significantly better than what's already in the market, no matter which end of it we're discussing, they should seriously consider exiting the market altogether.

    If we're getting 2060+ performance for $400 and 2070+ performance for $500 no one is going to be interested. And yes, I'm aware that "no one" probably includes you and me but that's still a completely insignificant target audience. The upside to that price range is that consumers willing to spend $400+ for a graphics card do more research than those sticking to the sub-$300 range does. Which means we might, might mind you, not see a repeat of the 560/570/580 fiasco where Nvidia outsold AMD something like 12-to-1 with slower and more expensive products.

    However, the high-end of the market is already hugely saturated and if that pricing is correct Nvidia wouldn't even have to contemplate any price cuts or game bundles or anything at all to absolutely destroy Navi before it's even available. At best they'll drag Jensen out on stage to repeat some RTX lines and that's it, mission accomplished.

    The only way I see these rumors as a viable strategy for AMD is if
    • the new architecture includes features that will be truly game-changing, like optimizations that would make the new console titles run amazing or whatever... or
    • the company is really confident about their next-gen architecture and desperately need something to tide them over until it's ready.
    Even in the latter case, perhaps the more realistic one, I'd argue the pricing model doesn't make much sense since it's a very small market and one even more dominated by the competition to begin with. Ie. showing up with nothing new wouldn't actually help tide them over.

    As you can probably tell this is something I have pretty strong feelings about. Not Navi as such, I don't care one way or another about Navi specifically, but the stagnation of PC graphics and the midrange in particular. Nvidia has done well at the extreme end but that's irrelevant when it comes to encouraging developers to push the envelope for their titles.

    What's needed, and has been needed, for a long time is a significantly improved midrange.

    Navi failing to deliver on that would be hugely disappointing because it's an open question when, if ever, such an opportunity would present itself again. Nvidia isn't going to be the saviors in this regard, for sure, and AMDs post-Navi lineup seems to target the enthusiast end of the spectrum from what little we know so far.

    If I have to put my hopes on Intel to dig us out of this I'm soo screwed... :p
     
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  15. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    I hope you understood irony of bold part. "Significantly better" is matter of opinion. New generation can be significantly better at something. Imagine that they did hear your plead years ago after bulldozer. No CPUs, no GPUs. No AMD. Monopoly. Very shortsighted.

    I'll give you advice: "Consider everything that does not make sense to you as something that's possibly above your ability to comprehend."

    And then you do what most do: "AMD, save CPU market! AMD, save GPU market!"
    ..."But I am not going to buy that savior CPU/GPU from you as I'll buy something from competition once you saved that stagnant market."
    See that quote of yours?
    I strongly oppose such irrational way of thinking. If I wrote post you did and then read it to validate its rationality, I would never press "Post" button.
     

  16. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    The pricing will be good.
    AMD/ATI will price their products accordingly.
    Personally i don't believe in 500€ Hi end Navi ;) when You have good aftermarket Vega 64 by Sapphire at 399€ :p
    IMhO -
    Hi end Navi starting price will be at ~299€
    Those are small chips, easy to manufacture with good Yield... So pricing at >400€ do not do any good to ATI.
     
  17. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Thing is, that while Sapphire reps could have done some diversion, I do not expect that to be case. More likely it is different way to look at pricing.

    When I write price in USD on our forums, I not only do currency conversion, but remove our 21% tax. As MSRP prices in USD for US are w/o tax.
    It is quite possible that 500 USD/EUR mark was expected asking street price for China... including tax. (China has general VAT 16%.)
    So, that can possibly be 430 USD/EUR excluding tax. But anything is possible. And till we see ins and outs of those chips, we'll not be able to judge if such price is justified.

    As far as acceptable price goes for me:
    If it performs around 2070 and has power under control VAT-less $430 is fine for me.
    If it performs above 2070 and power is kind of OKish, VAT-less $500 is fine for me. (As I can likely tune that power as with any other AMD's GPU. Unless they have some Ryzen-ish optimization in place. But then I would expect Power to be under control.)
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  18. OnnA

    OnnA Ancient Guru

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    Guys it's $499 Singapur Dollar ;)
    News updated.....

    Navi 10 XT = 330 USD
    Navi 10 ("Pro") = 280 USD

    Now that looks #better
     
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  19. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Fixed it for you.

    Btw. That pricing would be too good. Few more days. And then waiting for actual delivery.
     
  20. Exodite

    Exodite Ancient Guru

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    It's not a matter of opinion, any metric we care about would be an easily measurable one.

    Personally I would prefer a significantly improved midrange, ie. pushing performance notably in the $150-$250 bracket, but any metric is valid to gauge the success of Navi. It could offer significantly better performance at the high end, or same performance at much better prices.

    What it can't do is offer the same performance at the same price as something already on the market and have any chance of success.

    The reason I would even suggest AMD exiting the market if they can't, or won't, budge the status quo isn't a personal one - it's that I see little financial incentives for them to stick around under such circumstances. They very likely have a long line of success ahead of them with the new consoles, APUs at various levels and powering services like Stadia. They're well on the way to the next level of gaming and entertainment as it is, no need to cater to the discrete PC graphics market.

    I suppose another reason to stick around is that the R&D is already funded by third parties, ie. Sony and Microsoft, so why not take advantage of that and release Navi to the PC crowd as well? That runs into the same problem as the other reasons I mused about though, knowing their inherent handicap why release a product that's clearly less compelling than it should be?

    Obviously I don't have the answers, I'm just hoping that this rumored pricing and performance is incorrect because I can't see it leading anywhere good.
    *sigh* Oh come on, that's not even a remotely comparable situation and you know it.

    The CPU division either sells the chips or it doesn't, there's no plan B. At this point in time discrete PC graphics isn't the only game in town for AMDs GPUs, nor even the most important one I'd wager.
    And this just two posts in. *sigh*

    I'll return the favor then: Go back and re-read what you've actually replied to, you're going out of your way to be offended and succeeding to the detriment of both the argument at hand and the forum as a whole.

    I'm calling it quits on this particular discussion.
     
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