New consoles help design the PCs of the future, says Tim Sweeney, the CEO of Epic

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, May 15, 2020.

  1. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

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    I want to see some real comparisons. We have seen Spiderman running on a 5400 RPM HDD vs the PS5. I want to see the same comparison, any NVME SSD vs PS5.
    Once you're off a HDD, the point at which a videogame is bottlenecked by even a SATA SSD is extremely hard to find.
     
  2. Yxskaft

    Yxskaft Maha Guru

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    Microsoft is working on bringing the Direcstorage extension to Windows, so the software portion for most effectively using the SSD for gaming obviously isn't there yet. Both Microsoft and Sony have talked about decompression hardware and I/O optimizations.

    There's no useful benchmark PC gamers currently can refer to since all games always have been optimized for HDDs. Consoles actually pushing SSDs, and making the current bottlenecks on PC a real deal, could very well happen, and it's really only the professionals working with that who could give a trustworthy answer.
     
  3. sykozis

    sykozis Ancient Guru

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    So, PS5 will have 5GB/s SSD? Samsung just announced a 6.5GB/s NVMe drive for PC.....
     
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  4. bigfutus

    bigfutus Master Guru

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    Wake me up when there are actual games with such graphics. This is nice and all, and it is for real, but i almost laughed my ass off, when after this video i read, that Ubisoft will try to maintain at least 30FPS minimum in AC Valhalla. That is the true next gen, for the foreseeable future :D
     

  5. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

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    The only issues I see is Google not flagging it as being inappropriate for the younger viewers, since it doesn't even require a login on YouTube to watch the video.
     
  6. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

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    https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/f...to-run-the-unreal-engine-5-demo-smoothly.html

    Epic also appreciated the benefits of the PS5's SSD, noting that such graphics cannot be achieved using a hard drive or even a SATA SSD as they do not have enough speed to load the high resolution textures as they are needed.If we want to use those textures on PC, we will need if or if a high speed NVME SSD.


    Those exist though together with PCIE 4, besides that, pre-caching into RAM anyone?
    And an SSD SATA raid setup can probably get there too.
    Also, Epic can't just use all the SSD space they want, people will be outraged if they only have space for one UT5 game on their PS5. :D

    Unfortunately, we have to wait until the beginning of 2021 for Epic to launch Unreal Engine 5.

    Plenty of time for even faster NVME drives to arrive?
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
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  7. TalentX

    TalentX Member Guru

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    This article is useless.
    The PC never required the "help" of consoles and still doesn't require it. In fact, it was and is vice versa, thus consoles screwing up game development for PC - a very good example here just to name one: multiplatform games originally developed for consoles, ported poorly to PC - there is many of such and everyone knows that.

    And what's the point talking about Storage capability? This is something that gaming consoles can utilize only for one purpose, there is no need to compare that with PC, as PC has far more storage capabilites to achive anything that could gain from here, and even beyond as PC is not only gaming related.
     
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  8. Dribble

    Dribble Master Guru

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    All the "totally integrated storage" can really do is load a bit faster. It's not like they can really stream terabytes of models on off it's little SSD - there is no space.
     
  9. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Every single thing in that video is something we haven't seen before. The people who made it worked less than the average developer having to get a high polygon count model and make it again five times for different LODs, and make the textures on top of that each time. Please try to listen to the words being said alongside the video.
    Yeah, there are a few issues there, alongside that. The thing is that the PS5 has dedicated I/O for the SSD that does a few things that on a current PC architecture, need to be done on the CPU:
    1) It has dedicated hardware compression and decompression, so the actual transfer rates almost double if you use something like kraken, which is accelerated in hardware from the system.
    2) The actual I/O is also managed by dedicated hardware, and not the CPU.
    3) The SSD, RAM, and L-caches in the hardware are transparently to the developer, coherent between them. This means no copies between memory spaces for each device. Essentially a game installation is the "memory" space, and the hardware itself brings things "closer" to the CPU/GPU as needed, including even the L1/L2/L3 caches of each.

    There is no equivalent on the PC for the above, but I would bet that it is connected to those SSG cards AMD presented a few years back, that do exactly that but with the GPU only.
    This is a direct quote from a Digital Foundry interview with Czerny about the PS5, bold by me:
    Basically, you need a 3950x just to have parity on the CPU front, and even then you will bottleneck the universe. This is great, I/O has always been the Achilles Heel of PC architecture, it's about damn time. Microsoft is doing something with DirectStorage but there is no ETA, and it will still not be able to do magic without hardware support. The best we can hope for is to have parts of this integrated to GPUs, but that means that even PCIe 4.0 will get saturated really really fast, and we still need to have some hardware acceleration for storage on the CPU side.
    Also, their custom NVMe protocol has double the fine graining available than the normal one on PC. Brute-forcing this will be possible with future storage devices, PCIe5.0 and immense CPUs, but it would be stupid and expensive.

    TL;DR:
    Tim Sweeney knows what he's talking about, current PC storage is downright primitive.
     
  10. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    Well, there are two (pretty big) textures loads that no longer need to exist thanks to UE5: normal maps and lightmaps.

    In addition to this, as we now no longer need LOD (Level Of Detail) which means tonnes (and I really mean a huge number) of objects and draw calls that "POOF!" will now not be needed.

    Lemmi break it down for you.

    -Each model you import, also gets its own LOD, which is normally generated by UE, but can be generated in 3dMAX/Maya/Blender/we.

    -Each model in a game level/map therefore must have a normal map and a baked-in lightmap (generated by the engine pre-runtime), so when the player looks at it, it renders in real-time (high quality or low quality, more on this later)

    -If you have 8 LOD's, because you got a huge map/level (3-6 LOD's is kinda CS:GO size of map), then you are multiplying the stored raw data 8 times and then another 8 times, one for the normal and one for the lightmap.

    -When the player interacts with the environment, we get all this data being shunted from the storage into RAM/VRAM/we, in an almost click-click-click staging effect. So - when you are flying over a landscape in say, BF1-5, you can literally see the lines of LOD changes occurring real-time on the landscape below.

    The thing about UE5 (if correct) is that this no longer happens at all.
    All you need is the biggest and maddest assets you can develop and just throw that $hit at the engine to just 'sort-it-out'.

    I mentioned 'high quality and low quality' earlier, as this has (for the largest majority of PC Games) been a toggle inside of the game, where you spend as much time as possible trying to get the gfx to look úber-awesome with your PC (I swear ten years ago I spent more time tinkering with Crysis, than I did actually playing the game). What that toggle does and did was load up the correct texture/normal/LOD switch distance/particle density/etc until the game ran at the best rate it could, based on your settings.

    Again, thanks to UE5, this is now no longer necessary as everything is real-time and your device (doesn't have to be a PS5) will just let the engine 'sort-it-out'.

    I honestly cannot overstate just how ****ing amazing this is!

    "Here you are engine, here is the entire planet, down to the thinnest blade of grass - now, sort it out and make it run at 999 frames per second on PS5, PC, Switch, iPad, colecovision..."

    Job ****ng done.

    Oh - lest we not forget, you can import your UE4 project and it will just 'do the math' and POOF! your PS4 game you delivered 7 years ago now works...and it looks better...and it uses less memory...and loads faster (no light-maps needed!).

    I could go on at length and have on discord with others, and my team.

    Anyway. Sorry to rant, but 'in these times' we need to have good news - I just never thought we'd get 'great news'.
     
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  11. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    This is really revolutionary, my only hope is that other engines straight up copy it.
     
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  12. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

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    I get that, yet it still depends on SSD stream performance, which for the current PC basically comes down to bandwidth, latency and overall free system resources.
    Thing is though, those co-processors on next gen consoles are an overall cheaper solution besides making things easier for developers.
    I'm quite sure that at least AMD will do something about it, heck, even Intel stopped to be PCIE 4 naysayers.
    Hopefully Ue5 will in addition add easier and better cross-platform compatibility.
     
  13. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

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    @PrMinisterGR do you believe that demo couldn't run on the XSX?

    "Well, PC Gamer received word from Epic's Chief Technical Officer that even an RTX 2070 Super could run the Unreal Engine 5 demo at 'pretty good performance'. Technically, NVIDIA's graphics card even sports an inferior nominal TFLOPS value compared to the PS5 (9 vs 10.28), so that's great news.

    Tim Sweeney expanded on that in the following statement to Digital Foundry, pointing to PC SSDs being able to deliver 'awesome' performance, too (while HDDs are probably going the way of the dodo rather quickly)."

    The reason xsx isn't mentioned is because it's a marketing stunt.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  14. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    Well, that's the real trick, is it not?

    Epic do give full source code out and certainly on day one, the secret sauce will be revealed to all - and until then, other engines are gonna have to figure it out. I kinda know how they did it (partially).

    If you look here at the listed timestamp (cannot currently embed a timestamped mediaclip):

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC5KtatMcUw&feature=youtu.be&t=416

    You will see that when the hole in the ceiling opens, there is a very brief moment when the round hole is a dodecagon and then it morphs into a perceivably-perfect circle.

    Now, part of this is using OpenSubDiv from Pixar, which is a really neat and fully open source bit of code and math that turns blocky edges into super-smooth curved surfaces.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Another version of this type of math would be (analogously) the vector graphics that turns two or more points into a bezier curve, which is a hardcore bit of math that kills many an illustrators workflow, so they use rastering until the final product. Every episode of Family guy ét all was produced using rasterised imaging animation, but the final work was bezier when they flicked the switch (see: ToonBoom).

    So - they get the highest polygon Model they can, and UE5 will 'crunch' the polycount down, but, interpolate the poly count using OpenSubDiv, but needs the briefest of moments to calculate the difference between the set target and the actual polycount.

    The thing that stands out is that the roof/ceiling opening is clearly a dynamic mesh, or a skeletal mesh, and these assets typically are more of an issue for any engine due to the calls they have for animation etc. So, this is why this object (in my estimation) had a permanently low poly count, and had to upscale (with OpenSubDiv) which you can see occur in real time.

    This is also why the static meshes do not exhibit any transformation (not that I could see) and probably why there are soooo many standing statues.

    If you really want to see some magic, I would say that a real-time test of 5,000 actors/characters all moving independently and randomly would be a greater test than billions of static polygons, using huge amounts of triangle instancing to achieve fidelity.
     
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  15. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    There is a lot in the phrasing here, especially since we don't know the rules that the engine is using for scaling. The demo was running at 1440p30. That was with a 1:1 triangle to pixel analogy. For all you know the "awesome performance" is a stable 1080p30 with 1:4 triangle to pixel analogy.

    The only quantitative measurement he gives is that the PS5 storage is "God-tier" compared to the PC, but yes, the Multiplatform engine will run ok on an expensive NVMe SSD and a $500 PC GPU shouldn't be news, but it's no luck they demoed streaming these assets using the PS5.

    Tim Sweeney is making an engine he sells to everyone. Epic has been in demos from NVIDIA, Sony, Microsoft, AMD, even Nintendo. They don't give a sh*t.

    I would be more interested to hear from anyone with experience in 3D modelling for games about the size requirements in case everyone suddenly decides that LODs and normal maps are a thing of the past, and that they will only ship high-poly assets. I wonder how that would change the base installation of a game, alongside the ever-present constant storage compression.
     

  16. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Do we actually know they're using that Pixar library? Your assumption is that they actually upscale some models, and that they would have issues with models that require transformation. But what about the falling rocks and geometry? Just particle effects? They seemed to animate and deform (maybe), and they cast shadows like "real" geometry.
     
  17. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    OpenSubDiv has been in the code since...4.20? But as an experimental feature of the geometry editing. You can create blueprints using 'sub divide', and the code support this.

    So, here is my estimated process for say, a perfect sphere:

    1) Import into UE5 with a tri count of 5 trillion (BS figure, just to explain the point)
    2) UE5 'crunches' the Sphere into 12 triangles (6-sided cube, 8 vertices)
    3) Developer drops sphere into level/map
    4) Developer compiles level/map for delivery
    5) Run-time locates sphere, interpolates (using OpenSubDiv) to infinity, to make the cube a 5 trillion count perfect sphere

    So, basically, the higher polygon count the original asset is, the better the math can reduce the polygon down to it's barest miniscule size (a perfect cube is the root of a perfect sphere) and then OpenSubDiv just scales up in real-time to it's ultimate conclusion, even though in memory, it's still a cube.

    The big question is: what is the lowest polygon count an object can be?

    Once you have the answer to that, OpenSubDiv will scale the object up.

    Sub Dividing geometry has been in Maya/Max/Blender/we for years now, and as Epic Games have got a very punchy import tool called Datasmith, it would be inconsistent of them to NOT allow people to import geometry which has had subdivision surfaces.

    As for particle systems, yes, GPU particles have been in the engine for a while down, and these allow for mesh-based particle systems, and if they are meshes, they (should) have sub-divisional surfaces - but I would say the mesh-based particle systems are more akin (mathematically) to instancing for memory purposes. So it's like "Hey GPU/CPU! You see that thing located here? Just replicate it - but don't bother using more memory, just use the same address as the other one - thanks bye!" Instead of using any sort of scaling.

    Another thing to look at is the Chaos system, which has a detailed explanation here - kinda covers a lot of what you want to know about the falling rocks, but, in my estimation, they may or may not have scaled the geometry down, hard to tell without seeing the granular on that.

    They also touched on Sequencer, which truly is a god-send for scripting, yet operates like a motion graphics NLE system, with layers and stacks to it - light years ahead of its prior incarnation 'Matinee'. I think there is also no doubt they used USD from pixar for that tech demo, too - just to make things easier.
     
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  18. jbscotchman

    jbscotchman Ancient Guru

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    I have one plural word to say. Triangles. :eek:
     
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  19. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    This sounds very reasonable, and it probably fits like a glove with the vertex shading and polygon tricks RDNA 2.0 and Turing and up can do. The mapping of triangles to screen space this way sounds like they do that this way. I wonder what that means for the minimum requirements of games using this engine.
     
  20. Loobyluggs

    Loobyluggs Ancient Guru

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    If you can draw a cube, you can draw a perfect sphere. It's that simple.
     

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