MSI AB / RTSS development news thread

Discussion in 'MSI AfterBurner Application Development Forum' started by Unwinder, Feb 20, 2017.

  1. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Those scary stories about missing whitelist are made up by those "fair" players who badly want to have their "falsely banned" accounts back. FO76 anticheat also has a whitelist of course, like any other anticheat. And it already contains all known hooks starting from old rusty Fraps and ending by modern hook apps.
    Everything that is misssing in whitelist is also never getting you banned, anticheats do not use heuristics and do not ban anyone preemptive just for seeing something unknown on his PC. They either block such non-whitelisted modules from injecting into the game (e.g. BE and EAC work this way, for example if I compile internal debug build RTSS and do not sign it, it simply won't be accepted by the game and overlay won't work (I meet such case daily during debugging without being banned :))) or alternately anticheat will submit info about unknown module to the server so the module can be analyzed by anticheat developers and either whitelisted or blacklisted (if they determine it as cheat related). And such analysis is alswys manual, so scary tales about "anticheat just thought that my Discord overlay is a cheat and banned me because of it" are utter bullshit. Anticheats are always banning for detecting some BLACKLISTED modules or processes, which are KNOWN to be cheat related. There is no heuristics and no "user run something we don't know about, let's ban poor guy and make him purchase a new copy" cases. That's the reason why bans are always declared to be permanent.

    Here is a short RE review of FO76 anticheat implementation:

    How to get caught by Fallout’s anti-cheat | Douggem's game hacking and reversing notes (wordpress.com)

    It is a few years old, some things got improved but it still gives a basic understanding of how FO76 anticheat works in reality. There is the list of blacklisted processes that absolutely result in ban, which includes CheatEngine and other similar memory editing software. Simply running it will result in ban, even if you don't use it to cheat. I'd say that most of "false" ban cases are related to this case. Many players use such things as trainers in other single player games and do not realize that running such software when playing multiplayer game will get result in a ban. Some third party anticheats may ban you if such software is detected installed on PC, even if it is not running.
    There is also anti-debugger protection (which may also result in ban), set of blacklisted modules (which will result in ban) and set of whitelisted moules, which are allowed to be injected in the game process. Processes missing in whitelist are not banning anyone too, they are marked as unknown and submitted to Bethesda for manual analysis and they either append whitelist or append blacklist in future updates. There are also game logic manipulation checks, uncovered by this review, which may result in ban after manual analysis from Bethesda side (e.g. abnormal container weight checks, abnormal ammo count checks etc).
     
  2. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Groundhog day and deja vu, "nice weekend" continues. First the same troll person decided to continue spoiling the air and reporting my posts, then the person from yesterday reddit thread decided to create one more "You WILL get banned for using Afterburner w/ RTSS" with new "true" statements like " I do know afterburner has in the past been linked to getting people banned on some games", which I needed to comment during a few more hours. Hehe.
     
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  3. CrazY_Milojko

    CrazY_Milojko Ancient Guru

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    Things like this are a sad proof for sad state of society we live today. Anyone can write anything on the internet claiming his innocence, add few more people from the opposite sides of the fence as a fuel to the fire and here goes the neverending avalanche... In your case, MSIAB/RTSS, it's geting even worse looking how someone blatantly accuses your "child" for doing something without any hard evidence and you know how good you've raised him and how many hours you've invested into him to become what he is now. One only can imagine frustration acummulating while reading all that.

    Need to vent myself a bit with some accident from yesterday, while drinking coffe in the office before I start doing something today after 10AM. It's not directly related to that story you're talkin above but clearly shows the state of society today...

    Yesterday, it was somewhere around 5PM, maybe few minutes before, some chick nearby starded to argue over the phone. Our office is located in building with lots of other offices around and above us there are apartments where people are living. She was at the center of the building, like a giant hallway, mall like, surround by all kind of bussiness offices in every direction. She was so loud while talking over the phone, it was echoing so hard it was completely unbearable even through the closed doors. Chick was pretty good looking but quite thin blonde, polished on the outside, clearly she hasn't doing anything hard in her life, probably completely spoiled from her early days, saw her first time in my life. But, oh boy, she trashtalked so hard, while nervously walking back and forth, I was completely stunned with the dirty laundry coming from her mouth, she was "serving" every kind of dirt from her life to everyione around, cursing like it's the last day at the Earth, I mean there were dozens of people in offices around, Jesus, it was like a scene from those reality shows like Big Brother where two or more stupids were arguing for hours. She was the perfect example of those "Karen youtube freakouts"... and, of course, it was "not her fault", she was blaming everyone else over the phone, but she was innocent of course! 5 minutes had passed, 10, no one in surrounding offices hasn't reacted on her trashtalk, no one even peaked through the doors of their offices to see who was the fool shouting and screaming over the phone, unbelievable. 15 minutes and couldn't stand it anymore, I was trying to focus on some work and to finish it till the 6PM but just couldn't. Walked to the office entrance door, looked to her direction, some 15m away from me, waved few times so she could see me but she wasn't reacting. Shouted few times: "...cmon lady, give us a break, we're trying to work here!...". Think our eyes had crossed for a brief moment but she turned her look the other way and continued to trashtalk loud, she just moved few meters away. I've shouthed even louder, with a bit of angry tone in my voice, but without any effect. My wife was there also, she came to pick me up after the work, I've entered back to the office and asked her how shomething like this doesn't annoys her or anyone else around, she: "...let alone the fool...". 30 minutes had passed, 40, blonde wasn't going to stop, how-come-she-can-talk-(better word: scream)-so-loud-for-so-long, where that energy is coming from such a thin body, I would faint after 15 minutes to scream that loud non-stop?! Walked again to the office entrance door, shouted at her once more: no effect... I've grabbed one laptop, some 2.1 speakers from the closet, walked to the office entrance doors, connected everything... My wife: "...wh... what are you doing!?..." Me: "...if no one around is doing anything... I will...". Cranked up the speakers to the max:


    And finally got her attention... there is a God above!!! She walked some 10 meters away and stoped talking completely looking in every direction where that "annoying sound is coming from". I was standing at the office entrance, hands crossed looking at her, clearly saw her looking my way for a brief moment realising I was the one trying to get her attention. I've waited few more minutes with that "music" ripping those 2.1 speakers. Funny enough no one arround reacted on this and believe me it was so loud it could raise the deads from their graves :D No one complained, there was no police, nothing! Turned speakers off still looking her way, she stopped talking and continued to argue kinda whispering on the phone. "...that take care of her for good..." ...I was thinking, but... Few minutes before 6PM she started screaming over the phone again, me: "...now what!? why no one around isn't doing anything ffs?!...". My wife: "...you ain't gonna do nothing more, we're going home in few minutes, hear me?!...". Some 5, 6 minutes later locked the office, meanwhile blonde dissapeared, wanted to kick her in the butt while walking to the car but she wasn't there, if my wife wasn't around yesterday afternoon probably I would get myself into trouble :rolleyes:

    Sorry for derailing the thread, I've needed this, coffe break is over, time for work, hope I've made someone here this morning a bit funnier/easier with the stupid story above ;)
     
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  4. orangewoolcry

    orangewoolcry Member Guru

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    nice wall of text there bro lol
     

  5. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    I would just not bother playing a game that pulls this level of anticheat, cheatengine has its uses - like quickly regaining things lost after a save file loss (bloody ubisoft doesn't cloud save AC:BF) or games where the story is engaging but the gameplay is pretty crap and you just want to faceroll the content to consume the story quickly.

    You can't even run process monitor without having to reboot after because it leaves some traces behind in kernel memory, and this doesn't just get picked up by some anticheats, it also blocked by wtfast and some applications with similar anti debugging.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  6. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    I don't know the exact circumstances and I've never experienced this issue before now, but I just had a case of the RTSS framecounter getting stuck a 13.1fps (the rate this game drops too when afk/tabbed out)

    "Show on-screen display" continued to toggle its visibility, and the framecounter is being read from RTSS into AIDA64 and presented on my G510 LCD at the correct value.
    Starting MSI AB does not switch to the configured overlay either.

    This freeze appears to have appears to have been something specific between the update period of the overlay and the framerate itself, and might be linked to my having powered off my PG279Q to test something else a day ago (might not too)

    The game itself renders fine, and subsequent games/emulators i know/have set overlays on are not recieving it (i'll have to restart rtss it seems)

    I'll pm you the dumps i created from the 3 processes

    Restarting RTSS restored the expected behaviors.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  7. Nuke

    Nuke Member

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    I use RTSS with front edge scanline sync -75 (1440p, 60hz monitor). Works marvelous but not in Vulkan API games. Tested in Path of Exile Vulkan API mode. I see floating 59-60fps limiter depending on scene, as result tear line sweaming from top to bottom. Both cpu and gpu works half power. In-game limiter working better.
    (no idea why game so dark on a screenshots)
    PathOfExile_x64Steam_2021_06_12_11_04_59_009.jpg PathOfExile_x64Steam_2021_06_12_11_05_33_847.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
  8. indexMemories

    indexMemories New Member

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    Hey. I've been using rtss for a while now. It's great and worked with the few games I played flawlessly. Except none of those were dx12. I've used hybrid sync in apex and overwatch and few other titles but warzone seems to somehow dodge the decimal fps limiter. It kind of limits it but it would still be around 75 while fluctuating from 74 to 76 and as you'd expect tearline was all over the place. I've managed to calm down the tearline and limit it to 75 with classic scanline sync. The only thing is it seems to use more gpu. Is it the limitation of dx12 side of things or I am missing something? Thanks~
     
  9. orangewoolcry

    orangewoolcry Member Guru

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    did you set it to -1 scanline sync , since from my understanding thats watcha gotta do to have it working its magic ...regardless if fps limit set or not
     
  10. ThirtyIR

    ThirtyIR Member

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    Is anyone having issues with MSI Afterburner and Windows 11 Pro (co-release 22000.65)?

    I was playing Red Dead Redemption 2 earlier today with RTX 3090 SLI and the FPS displayed through RTSS OSD was WAY OFF compared to the in-engine FPS displayed during the benchmark - by ~ 40 - 50%!

    Does MSI Afterburner & RTSS play well with Win 11 Pro?
     

  11. boogieman

    boogieman Ancient Guru

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    When Windows 11 gets to RTM and only RTM will Unwinder look into issues. He has stated this on past Windows releases. So yes, there may be issues.
     
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  12. Astyanax

    Astyanax Ancient Guru

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    MSI AB should operate without issues on 11

    D3D12 MGPU can throw off injected framerate counters though
     
  13. dezo

    dezo Active Member

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    Hi, just one quick question - is there some known compatibility issue with UE4 DX11 engine and RTSS framerate limiter or is it on my end?

    I played trough Terminator Resistance recently (fun game btw) and while testing video settings to reduce heat I noticed, that when I limit FPS to 100 using RTSS (7.3.2 b2), my GPU draws around 20W more than with NV driver framerate limiter. It stayed well under 190W with NV but shoots above 210W with RTSS. RTSS OSD was active in both cases, I just changed the limiter. I then tried the other UE4 DX11 game I have - The Vanishing of Ethan Carter Redux and noticed the same thing. Other games I have - mostly older titles on DX9/DX11/OGL are all fine, but they are not that demanding. I am on win10 1909, NV driver 456.71, standalone RTSS with default settings, no overclock, 144Hz VRR display.
     
  14. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    Framerate limiter was never intended to reduce power consumption. And never will.
     
  15. dezo

    dezo Active Member

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    It does for me, I mean 240W at 144FPS vs. 190W at 100FPS is a nice reduction... :)
    Anyway it is not a big deal, RTSS for me is still better limiter than the NV one - especially for OGL/Vulkan APIs and the fact, that NV doesn't even work in some older games.
     

  16. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Member Guru

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    While this is true, there are unintentional accidental major power savings -- with fiddling of settings (in conjunction with GPU power management), I can save 100-200 watts with RTSS on a higher end RTX 3000 series GPU "by accident", with multiple concurrent techniques that includes RTSS.

    Although you (Unwinder) shouldn't worry about power management (and won't need to, thankfully), a super flexible frame rate capper tool makes it easier to trick GPUs into a lower-power-per-frame situation. Thus, there is nothing stopping users from using RTSS to "help" the graphics drivers achieve superior power management:

    I have a Kill-a-Watt power meter, and skillfill fiddling of settings within RTSS in a power-priority-knowledge manner, can actually cut the power consumption of my RTX 3080 by a whopping half in some high-framerate games with no visible loss in quality. Use a short extension cable to put your wattage meter next to your display, so you can monitor things real time.

    The two major power savings goals are:

    (A) Prevent unnecessary frame rates. For example, games that want to run 600-700fps when looking at floors/walls, running down simple hallways, etc. Capping prevents those massive power spikes from a full-throttle GPU, voraciously upclocking your GPU and eating unnecessary power. A cap prevents this, a lower frame rate will generally automatically use less power.

    (B) It is also the ratio between render time and sleep time that can have a major impact on a GPU's power management logic too.

    The automatic driver-based power management can actually save as much as 50% power while keeping 75% frame rate. Some cards and drivers exhibit a geometric power curve made possible via automatic driver based clockrate control + microsleep control (putting GPU to a fuller deeper sleep state between frames). We piggyback on this geometric to save power without changing the frame rate.

    Some combinations of the two (clockrates+sleeps) creates dramatically lower power consumption from a "fewer watt-hours consumed per rendered frame" perspective than other methods of getting the exact same frame rate from the same GPU...

    Lower Power At (Mostly) Unchanged Frame Rates

    There are infinite combinations of clockrate+microsleep. For example, a capped 100fps with 5ms rendertimes, would mean 5ms of sleeping between frames. But if a specific fabbing of a specific GPU eats only one-half power at a very slightly slower clockrate creating 7.5ms rendertimes at the exact same graphics, then you've got a potential power savings at the same 100fps frame rate cap (drivers power-managing into a 5ms:5ms sleep) versus (drivers power-managing the balance) because of a slower clockrate between sleeps. Even though your sleep has halved from 5ms to 2.5ms, you have lower average power consumption per frame for an unchanged frame rate! Since the lower power render more than outweighs the reduced sleep. The sweet-spot ratio will vary from GPU to GPU and game to game. The geometric power curve can be manipulated in a way to allow a specific frame rate to have lower power, at an unchanged frame rate. That may be a smidge more latency per frame, but if you are power-priority, or if the latency becomes hidden by the frame rate cap anyway, then this may not matter.

    Not all GPUs have identical power management, so your mileage may vary (YMMV), but capping is one of the methods that often automatically activates GPU power management if the drivers automatically detects any idle time between render time.

    You can also just underclock the GPU manually, but that can be bad for your framerate valleys (complex scenery phases, room changes, texture loads) so instead you're using clever RTSS settings that ends up "accidentally asking the graphics driver to temporarily underclock your GPU" only whenever necessary during the simpler scenes and turning-past-a-wall situations. Voila, better power compromise! Creating this sweet spot is a game of settings-fu that is often computer specific and game specific.

    Adjusting GPU power management settings is another method, but most vendors don't provide multiple profiles of custom GPU power management, so indirectly influencing GPU power management via frame rate capping, produces rather interesting power-savings dynamics if you're very concerned about power management (e.g. running a gaming PC in an offgrid solar home). All in a saveable profile that can be (manually/automatically) recalled per game.

    Users who wish to use frame rate cappers (e.g. RTSS) as a power management kludge, must purchase a power outlet power meter (~$20-50 off eBay or Amazon) and learn how to fiddle settings in a way that produces the biggest lowerings with the least possible visible framerate reductions.

    This is done by tweaking RTSS to hit your graphics driver's power management sweet spot, if you're focussing on a power-vs-visuals tradeoff compromise. You need to real-time watch your Kill-a-Watt screen, while fiddling RTSS settings, while playing your game, until you hit sweet spot numbers, and then save that profile for that specific game. You will need different profiles for different games, different GPUs, and different CPU+GPU combos, so it's very system+game specific tweaking.

    If power savings is your priority, be careful about RTSS Scanline Sync on some GPUs -- some GPUs will eat more power in Scanline Sync mode. Now, if you hate stutters, jitters, VRR jitters, RTSS Scanline Sync jitters, and are precision-priority, you definitely want to disable power management and go precision-priority instead (also, enabling Flush in RTSS Scanline Sync briefly disables power management until flushed -- which is why Flush is high-power-consumption, but that's great if you're precision-priority over power-priority).

    So RTSS Scanline Sync is a power hog (because it sorts disables GPU power management out of necessity), compared to old-fashioned capping which can allow GPU power management to automatically activate (in NVIDIA drivers) between frames.

    Power savings is an unintentional use-case of RTSS that exists and apparently works on my end -- a side effect of RTSS influencing the graphics driver power management system. Usually you'll be gravitating towards various amounts of simple capping rather than complex capping (e.g. Scanline Sync), although there are interesting GPU power management behavior changes with front-edge syncing versus back-edge syncing on some cards. It is the quirkiness of graphics cards and drivers you're using RTSS to influence the power management of.

    Clever fiddling of settings in RTSS is capable of saving massively significant of power per frame at (mostly) visually imperceptibly changed frame rates in some cases -- big enough to make it more feasible to run a top-of-the-line gaming computer in an RV vehicle of limited battery size and limited solar panel size, without needing to run the generator as often.

    Any capping (game capping, Control Panel capping, RTSS capping) can save power, but some capping settings / algorithms trigger GPU power management more easily, quickly, and efficiently with fewer compromises. The more flexible the capper, the more power management options you have. This is where RTSS shines as a flexible capper, especially when you're also concurrently fiddling the settings of the game, the drivers, and the OS too, to create your best power results for your target frame rate. The different capping algorithms all consume different amounts of power on certain GPUs/drivers, so you have to experiment. And you don't want to fully disable your GPU's power management features if you are power-priority instead of precision-priority or latency-priority.

    TL;DR: Using RTSS as a power savings tool is just black belt "Settings-Fu" instead of being a real RTSS feature. It requires surgical RTSS settings-fiddling while reading a Kill-a-Watt power meter, while playing the game. This is useful for some niches, such as gaming PCs in offgrid homes run off solar+battery, and you want the lowest-power-per-frame for your frame rate cap.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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  17. Weekend

    Weekend Active Member

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    Hey I just wanted to say how awesome the prioritize option is in temp limit. I don't know when it was added but I just noticed it today.
    now I can game and render worry free knowing I'll never go beyond the temps I targeted. It's so amazing how it stays on the target temp.
    Thanks for all the work!
     
  18. fabiobad

    fabiobad Active Member

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    Hi Unwinder, sorry to bother but can you tell me how do I enable that type of overlay you shown on the video? I'm testing the Hybrid Scanline and it would help me having that. Thank you very much :)

    p.s. is it possible to tie the type of framerate limiter (async, front or back edge) to an single profile?

    EDIT: I've find out about the FCAT proprieties and that you can actually tie the frame color indicator and type of framerate limiter to a profile by hitting "setup" button while having the exe profile selected, cool!

    Now I only have to understand how to use the top left overlay, it looks like a custom one done in the "OverlayEditor", but I have no idea how to replicate it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
  19. Andy_K

    Andy_K Master Guru

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    That's the "moving bar" in RTSS->Settings->General->Enable frame color indicator->moving bar

    upload_2021-7-28_12-41-24.png
     
  20. Unwinder

    Unwinder Moderator Staff Member

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    It is power user oriented debug info, which can only be enabled via manually editing the profile. Edit ProfileTemplates\Global and set SyncInfo to 1
     
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