MOUSE Guide

Discussion in 'General Hardware' started by Corrupt^, Dec 29, 2010.

  1. Corrupt^

    Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,595
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    ASUS 1080GTX STRIX
    GUIDE - Deciding on a new mouse

    About a week ago, I started wondering if it would be a good idea to write this, so here goes!

    When buying a new mouse there are several things you have to keep in mind, such as mouse prediction, the speed until you no longer have perfect control, etc.
    I'll offer as much info as possible, but in the end a mouse is a personal thing, not everyone will like the same mouse and that's usually down to the shape.

    1. Mouse Prediction

      Mouse prediction is an algorithm that will try and predict the path you're trying to take. The problem with it, is that when making very small movements of just a
      few pixels, the mouse won't always make a perfect representation of your hand's movements.

      How can you test if your mouse has mouse prediction?

      Open up paint and just try and draw a straight line. Without prediction, the line will usually be imperfect, with prediction the mouse will try to correct the path and
      at a certain point the line will be perfectly straight.

      Another way to test it is by looking very close to your monitor until you start seeing the actual pixels (only works on LCD's, not on CRT's) and then try to move in a
      square of 4 pixels. Lowering your dpi helps for this test.

      Do I wan't mouse prediction?

      It really depends on the user. If you were using a mouse with mouse prediction up until this day and it never bothered you, don't worry to much about it.
      Another noticable thing is that mouse prediction can actually be a good thing on higher resolutions. There's more pixels for the algorithm to work with and it kind of
      helps to make your movements more stable. On lower resolutions however it's often better to have no prediction.

      List of mice without prediction:

      • Razer Deathadder (Depending on firmware used)
      • Logitech G500 (can be disabled/enabled through setpoint, logitech calls it "angle snapping")
      • Logitech G9x (I'm assuming, since it's the same sensor as the G500/Xai)
      • Steelseries Xai (Can be disabled/enabled through software or LCD)
      • Pretty much all of the old MS Intelli mice


    2. Perfect Control, Meters/second, Malfunction speed

      Perfect control is a term that kind of came to life after the big ESReality Mousescore review done by Sujoy:

      http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679

      Instead of reviewing mice the old fashioned way, he would use a device to measure the maximum speed a mouse could handle before it quits on you and skips.
      Depending on how the mouse handles "skipping" it'll either just stop tracking or even worse, making you flip around and look at the sky or ground.

      This is probably THE MOST important thing about a mouse for a FPS gamer. It basically reflects how reliable a mouse is. How fast can you flick a mouse around
      until it quits on you?

      Laser mice, aside from the latest ones, usually have a very bad top speed, below 1.5 m/s. Opticals on the other hand can go above 2 m/s or even higher. This is
      where the MX518 and old Deathadder really start to shine. These are 2 mice you can throw around like a madman, they won't skip on you, not even when reaching
      4 m/s.

      The newer laser mice such as the Xai and G500 have a much higher perfect control speed compared to the G5 and Ikari (and Copperhead). Though 1 detail should
      be mentioned. As you increase the DPI on these mice, the treshold for perfect control will start decreasing. But it's not really a big issue, unless you're one of
      those people using 5000 dpi and an ingame sens of 0.1.

      Sadly, mouse manufacturers still don't like putting this numbers in the specs, so in the end you're pretty much stuck to trying a mouse or reading comments on
      forums.

      Now on the graphs of Sujoy, aside from perfect control, there's still another "state" of tracking, usually where the graph stops increasing, but still keeps going.
      In this state, the mouse will have reached the maximum speed at which it can "move", but it is still capable of tracking. So moving your hand faster won't really
      translate into faster on screen movement. A nice example of this would be the MX518:

      http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=14

      In the end, the most important thing to look at is the malfunction speed (when it skips), or better yet, if you get a chance to test a mouse, open up a game and
      swipe it across the mousepad as fast as you would possibly move it while gaming.

      Mice with a high malfunctioning speed (the higher the better):

      • Steelseries Xai
      • Zowie EC 1/2
      • Logitech G500
      • Logitech G9x (I haven't tested this one, but it has the same sensor as the G500/Xai)
      • Basically all the Razer mice that were released since the Deathadder
      • All of the Logitech MX series mice (518, 510, 300, ...)

      For other laser mice that aren't included in the list, if they use the AVAGO 9500 sensor (G9x, Xai, G500), their malfunctioning speed should be pretty high.

      Another list with more recent mice:
      http://wikis.jp/interfacedevice/index.php?MaximumSpeed_en

    3. How much DPI do I need & Sensitivity

      Your camera standpoint moves around in a circle of 360°. There's no real "best sensitivity" but there's 1 way to test if you could do with more dpi:
      • To test, set your dpi quite low as it'll be easier
      • Draw a line of 1 pixel thick in photoshop/paint
      • Now get close to the monitor so you can actually SEE the pixels (only works on LCD's)
      • Use the line as a guideline and try and move your mouse so that you can move in a perfect square of 4 pixels clock or counter clock wise

      Now you've got an idea of what the maximim precision possible is like on your monitor (obviously best done at native resolution). After all of this is done, go
      ingame (keep the low dpi) and try to make a very small circle, similar to this square.

      Your viewpoint moves in degrees, but we're looking for the maximum possible precision on your monitor. You can try a really high sensitivity like 10 ingame
      (in CSS, Quake) and you'll see that you're not capable of making very fine adjustments.

      After you understand this, start from your own sensitivity you had and see if you can make a very fine movement, similar in detail to the square in paint/photoshop.
      Lower your ingame sensitivity until you reach that point.

      This sensitivity is what you could consider the ideal one for your setup (monitor, etc), setting it lower then that will not give you a visible increase in precision
      (it's still there but you're limited by what your monitor can show you).
      Now all that's left to be done is comparing this sensitivity to your old one and increase the dpi you were using (not the low one for this test obviously, the one you used to play with).

      An example: going from sensitivity 2.7 to 0.9 with a dpi of 450:

      2.7 / 0.9 = 3, so then you multiply your dpi with 3
      450 * 3 = 1350 DPI

      This will give you the same sensitivity but with the ability to make more precise small movements.

      This also brings me to the point of the windows slider. Going above 6 out of 11 should be considered pure evil. 6/11 is ideal and going lower won't be a big problem,
      windows will simply use interpolation and discard inputs.

      Also the windows slider it's scaling is NOT what people think it is, 3/11 is NOT half of 6/11. The scaling also depends on wether you have "Enhance mouse pointer
      precision" ticked or not (turn that off btw, EPP = Mouseacceleration).

      With EPP ticked off:

      • 1/11 = 0.03125
      • 2/11 = 0.0625
      • 3/11 = 0.25
      • 4/11 = 0.5
      • 5/11 = 0.75
      • 6/11 = 1.0

      For more see this thread from MarktheC:
      http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1847344#pid1847344

      When games use rawinput, which is better, windows input will be ignored and your sensitivity will be similar to what it is when the windows slider would be 6/11.
      If you're changing the windows sensitivity or going from 4/11 to raw input, you can simply calculate your new ingame sensitivity or new DPI like in this example:

      We have a mouse with 1800 dpi, sensitivity 1.0 ingame, 5/11 in windows and we would like to switch to rawinput or windows sensitivity 6/11:

      Simply multiply 1800 with the value for 5/11, 0.75 and this will give you your new DPI:

      1800DPI x 0.75 = 1350DPI​


      Same for the sensitivity ingame. We have sensitivity of 2.0 ingame and 4/11 in windows. We want to change the windows sensitivity to 6/11.

      Sens (2.0) x Windows 4/11 (0.5) = 1.0 ingame​


      I also suggest you install a mousefix. Most games won't need it these days, but some older or badly coded games will force EPP on, giving you acceleration.
      A mousefix simply edits the coordinates of the acceleration so it reverts back to a straight lineair line.

      The best mousefix would be the WCAFix, which actual disables the code in windows for EPP:
      http://rapidshare.com/files/414877656/WCAFix_AllOS.rar

      On windows 7 and vista you will have to enable testsigning though.

      For registry mousefixes, 7 requires a different one then Vista/XP. Microsoft fixed a slight issue on 7 with how mousemovement was translated to on screen
      movement.

      For Windows 7 the best fix would be MarktheC's:
      http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1846538

      For XP/Vista the ideal fix is Cheese's, I still need to find a link though, the original one is down:
      http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1548753


    4. Shape

      The only tip I can give you after trying loads of mice:

      For god sakes, stop looking at the pretty lights, you're supposed to be able to hold that thing for several hours without getting cramps...
      Preffered shape is completely personal.


    5. Build Quality

      Right now we're not taking into account the few cases where people their mouse breaks quickly because of manufacturing flaws or w/e, we're looking at pure
      raw built quality.

      I've opened up and looked inside a ton of mice and if I where to pick a brand for the nr1 spot for build quality, it would be Logitech, especially the old MX series.
      All of the MX mice I ever had are still working, even right down to the 10 year old MX300...

      Razer seems to have improved, but their scroll wheels tend to break quite fast.

      Steelseries Ikari seemned to have lot's of flaws, I took a risk buying the Xai, it seems they didn't make the same mistake twice.

      I don't know about Roccat, if I had a bit more cash to spare, I would've bought the new Kone as well to see how it performed.


    6. A few more words of advice

      Until all reviewers start testing malfunctioning speeds or turn into fnatic f0rest, don't bother with mouse reviews. They're utterly POINTLESS. They'll keep
      sprouting the same crap over and over:

      "Feels nice and comfortable"
      "Looks nice"
      "Tracks very well" (with the reviewers mediocre gaming performance any mouse would tbh)

      And the list goes on. The best way is to do some research on forums like ESReality and Razerblueprints. Does a mouse have a problem that seems to be happening
      to more then half it's users (or in Razer's case, everyone...)? Then stay away from it.

      About Razer lately, I suggest staying away from mice from Razer with Z-Axis tracking at the moment, this is why:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD0ThxpVHMs


    7. Extra Info

      A good, detailed list of mice and their used sensors and specs, made by skylit on the overclock.net forums:

      http://www.overclock.net/mice/854100-ocn-mouse-sensor-reference-performance-sheet.html


    EDIT:

    Windows 8.1 Fix

    This will fix the strange mouse behavior in some games (and the low polling rate reported in some mouse utilities).

    Link to Microsoft KB article: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2908279

    2 methods to get the fix:
    • Through regular updates
    • Install the hotfix (lost the url need to get this one back)

    How to apply the fix pretty much system wide:

    • Open up regedit.exe
    • Browse to "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\AppCompatFlags\"
    • See if there's a ''Key" (like a folder if you don't know what a key is) named "Layers"
    • If not present, create a new "Key" in "AppCompatFlags"
    • Inside "Layers" create a new string value named C:\Windows\explorer.exe
    • As value for this string use: NoDTToDITMouseBatch
    • Once done, close regedit and open up a CMD window with admin rights
    • execute the following command in the CMD window: Rundll32 apphelp.dll,ShimFlushCache
    • Reboot just to make sure (registry adjustments were made in HKLM afterall)

    This will make the fix active whenever explorer.exe is active, so practically always. If you only wish to trigger the fix for certain applications, follow the same steps as above but replace the string value name with the path to your application (per example: X:\pathtoyourapp\csgo.exe). Repeat this for every needed application if you're not planning on doing this "system-wide" (using the explorer.exe trick).

    Example

    [​IMG]

    Once you've done this, your mouse works just as in Windows 8.0.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  2. s88urd

    s88urd Master Guru

    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    770 Lightning
    very good guide, thanks for taking the time to put it together :)
     
  3. Corrupt^

    Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,595
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    ASUS 1080GTX STRIX
    Added "How much DPI do I need & Sensitivity"
     
  4. Tat3

    Tat3 Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    11,489
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    HIS R9 380 4gb
    Nice quide, I would vote for sticky.

    What about the mouse surfaces with difference sensors (laser/optical) ?
     

  5. Corrupt^

    Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,595
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    ASUS 1080GTX STRIX
    Can't really tell much about that since I've always used cloth, but usually mice perform better on hard surfaces.

    Currently using an old fashioned one, the Allsop Raindrop XL xD
     
  6. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,791
    Likes Received:
    9
    GPU:
    Asus Strix GTX 1080
    Nice post, should be made sticky.
     
  7. enthusiast17

    enthusiast17 Banned

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    Sapphire HD 6870
    Thats a lot of info i didn't know about my G5, Thanks :)
     
  8. Atlas

    Atlas Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,370
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    290 x2, Saphire reference
    I use my mouse without a mouse pad because I don't like elevated surfaces to work on. So, I bought a 'Logitech Performance Mouse MX' to not be dependent on the type of surface used with the mouse.

    But I would also like to see some optical vs surface type comparison.

    This thread is however subject to the stickiehammer :)
     
  9. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,791
    Likes Received:
    9
    GPU:
    Asus Strix GTX 1080
    I prefer to use the hard and large steel pad.
    Not much elevation and even place for my cat.
     
  10. Atlas

    Atlas Maha Guru

    Messages:
    1,370
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    290 x2, Saphire reference
    Cats... I have three, so no place for all of them lol
     

  11. Corrupt^

    Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,595
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    ASUS 1080GTX STRIX
    lol, I've also got 3 cats. Also cleaned up the text a bit. If I have some more time I'll look into some more links. I remember some Asian site was doing similar reviews to Sujoy's mousescore, but for more recent mice. With google translate and the graphs, you could make enough out of it to know the malfunctioning speed of the mice and their perfect control.

    Laser mice using the Avago 9500 sensor (Xai, G500, G700, G9x), should go up to about 4 m/s, depending on the surface.

    Btw, one of the most highly underestimated cloth pads these days:

    [​IMG]

    That's the one I'm using now :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  12. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,791
    Likes Received:
    9
    GPU:
    Asus Strix GTX 1080
    I'm in no way happy with the micro switch quality.
    Might have bad luck, but all Logitech G and MX series mice I had for the last 4 years got worn out on left click button in no time.
    So I simply stopped using their mouse products.
     
  13. FULMTL

    FULMTL Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,704
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    AOC 27"
    What about a section about weights?

    I prefer the heaviest weights on my Logitech G9. Actually, I want it slightly heavier. Having a heavy mouse with high DPI means I dont have to move the mouse as much and its proportionate to whatever is going onscreen. I also dont over aim my targets and I can still do quick 180's within an inch of hand movement.
     
  14. Corrupt^

    Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,595
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    ASUS 1080GTX STRIX
    There was a batch of MX mice that had mouse buttons wearing out really quickly, even had it myself, but most of the MX mice I had have been working for over 5 years or longer.

    The Ikari optical had severe issues with bad cabling.

    All of the brands, Logitech, Razer, Steelseries, ... don't really make the parts themselves. They design the shape and layout, but the sensors, quality of the buttons, ... all comes down to where they got it from. If you open up a mouse, under the mouse buttons there usually are blocks with a clicking system, perhaps Logitech tried to cut costs for a certain batch by actually using cheaper versions for those blocks.

    Weights, just like the shape, are entirely personal. Though in general, most competitive gamers actually prefer the mouse to be as light as possible, below 100 grams. I can imagine weight being a aid for people with massive hands or a very high sensitivity though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  15. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    3,791
    Likes Received:
    9
    GPU:
    Asus Strix GTX 1080
    Or large hands, high sensitivity and mmorpg's.
     

  16. TruMutton_200Hz

    TruMutton_200Hz Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    2,760
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    820M/2GB
    Thanks but no thanks. Either I play games using the MX 518 or I don't play games.
     
  17. Corrupt^

    Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,595
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    ASUS 1080GTX STRIX
    Did some more research on the ROCCAT Kone [+] (new one). It's using the same sensor as the G500/G700/Xai, so performance should be pretty solid. Though they are using interpolation to get to 6000dpi, so it's probably best to keep the DPI below 5040 (factory standard).
     
  18. Corrupt^

    Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,595
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    ASUS 1080GTX STRIX
    Added website with more info about perfect control, tests on newer mice.
     
  19. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

    Messages:
    25,218
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPU:
    7950 Vapor-X 1100/1500
    Thx, and here's a free bump, lol :)
     
  20. Corrupt^

    Corrupt^ Ancient Guru

    Messages:
    6,595
    Likes Received:
    1
    GPU:
    ASUS 1080GTX STRIX
    Bump for:

    Added list with detailed specs and used sensors in a wide range of mice from overclockers.net.
     

Share This Page