It's a lie, I tell you... no!

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by gunslinger, Jul 5, 2005.

  1. let me add this also..

    The pixel shader is where NVIDIA have spent a great deal of effort optimising and improving the throughput of each pixel pipeline, allowing for performance that is closer to double what GeForce 6800 Ultra is capable of achieving. NVIDIA have chosen this path rather than just adding more NV40 pipelines in to GeForce 7800 GTX, which would ultimately require faster memory than what is readily available right now.

    Lack of yield on memory ultimately means that the GPU availability suffers. Hopefully we will not see a repeat of last year this time around, 1.6ns Samsung DRAM modules are fairly widespread now and there shouldn't be problems with memory yields. They have adopted the logic of doing more work per pixel per clock because of the evolution of shader instructions.

    Shader Model 3.0 allows for much more complex instructions, and providing each pixel shader is able to perform more work with each pixel, you will not require twice the memory bandwidth to ensure that pixels are stored and then rendered to display in good time.
    ;)
     
  2. GaryX

    GaryX Master Guru

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    Crashing Edje

    nice information, but: the threat is not : how much better is the 7800, it is: why the hell did nvidia cancle agp complete ?

    my board supports a cpu up to 3700, i have 1gb ddr ram @cl2-3-5-2, audigy2zs, raid-0, ....i cannot see the reason to buy a new motherboard+new cpu + new ram and more just to buy a nvidia card. my system is simply not outdated enough to drop anything in the trashcan!

    this was a very bad decision nvidia did

    :mad:
     
  3. Keitosha

    Keitosha Ancient Guru

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    Talking about an Ati fanboy. :p

    Your complaining about the official Forceware releases, but let me remind you that EVERY driver can be considered Beta in some ways. The only thing we think which makes a Forceware driver official is the WHQL certification. But this is just Microsoft telling us that those Forceware are ok for Windows. Even so, a WHQL driver will not garantee that it will run with Linux.

    Perhaps at this time, M$ is testing the Beta 80.40 drivers and will it declare WHQL.

    My opinion is that Nvidia's driver support is WAY better than Ati's. There are more problems with Ati drivers than with those from Nvidia.
     
  4. Kermit_the_frog

    Kermit_the_frog Master Guru

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    For sure go take a real long look at game/driver related problems ATI has made good progress but is still a long ways off the mark , and as for no AGP card this time or for this model who cares just get a new mobo if you have too or get the 6800GT prices will drop its a great card , oh and for the guy crying about the drivers I use 67.50 on both our rigs and we play more games then you can name, we have 2 x 939 pin Athlons and 2 x 6800 family video cards and just in games we own every title you can think off .. and no not copy's either so anyways ATI is ok but it still is not on the mark for open gl games and there problems in games are horrid.
     

  5. jawshuwa

    jawshuwa Master Guru

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    ahh man this thread is making me sad, I like ATI but I like nVidia more but then again I was planning the upgrade when I do my taxes next year so I will be going nVidia all the way baby!!!
    yay now I am sooo happy

    jawshuwa

    also, I feel the aingst about this issue, just becaus pcie may be faster it dont make AGP bad, it is still fast and good there is a ton of time before we actually see the death of AGP.
    many a poor carpenter bames his tools.
     
  6. knivestv

    knivestv Master Guru

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    This is madness.

    So many people complaining about how they will "not buy nvidia if they have to upgrade their boards" and all other manner of, well, stuff...

    How many people here either have owned or still own every nvidia release since the first geforce?

    Very few, I'm absolutely certain.

    It's a simple fact that there are only a handful of people who upgrade to every single piece of new hardware made by ANY hardware manufacturer, not just nvidia.

    I would guess, that most folks who own a 6800 today upgraded from something less than a FX5950.

    Well, the ones who did buy FX cards, but didn't make the change for a 6X00 will be the ones who now have their eyes on buying new hardware, which will likely include PCI-E based boards and 7800 based cards.

    All us 6X00 users bought 8XAGP boards didn't we?????? God knows why tbh lol... but we all did, including me. And Uber clocked or 64bit hardware right? Most did, judging by the specs in most of the posts here so far.

    All 7800 users will of course get express boards just the same as required. And most 7800 buyers will be ones who leapfrog over the 6X00 series of card, rather than buy both.

    Nvidia are not stupid. They know what market they are aiming for, and it's not a bunch of 6800, super hi spec users arguing over whether or not nvidia should bring out AGP version 7800 graphics cards, because they know that most 6800 users will ride out their hardware as long as possible anyway, so they want the the ones who have waited from the FX range and also the real die harders still on the Ti series of 3 and 4, as they know that these people will be upgrading ALL their hardware soon to match the hi spec of the card they want to own.

    Most people do upgrade the rest of their hardware either close to, or exactly the same time as they make a major leap in video card spec. I dont see hundreds of Geforce 6800 users for instance running on a spec of PC that only warrants a Geforce 3 Ti, so it's a fact that people will just upgrade to support the card at it's best.

    Nvidia knows this. They is not stoopid.

    I won't be buying a 7800 as it's too soon after buying a 6800, and I wanna play with it a while. Before that I had a GF4 TI4600. I will buy what's after the 7X00 series and do an overhaul of the whole PC.

    I missed the FX completely. And I bet most of the 6X00 users today have not touched FX cards either.

    knivestv
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2005
  7. ericdrum

    ericdrum Member Guru

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    I tend to go from nVidia to ATI and back and forth. My last 4 cards were a GeForce 4TI 4200, FX 5900(only for 2 months), Radeon 9800 Pro and now a 6800GT.
     
  8. Chris Chiu

    Chris Chiu Active Member

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    IT'S A DEAL between Nvidia and ATI!. nvidia release g70 2 months early but no AGP version forever, ATI then can release AGP version r520 for the market.
     
  9. adrichardson

    adrichardson Guest

    It's hardly a surprise. It's in Nvidia's interests to have people upgrade to pcie, and there will be some people who decide to switch just so they can run a 7800. Personally, I think the 6800 ultra is more than good enough for a bleeding edge cpu now. It doesn't bother me much, as I'll probably be giving the whole 7 series a miss anyway. I find the more you pay for a graphics card, the longer you keep it (whereas mid or low range cards need upgrading much more frequently).
     
  10. HanShot1st

    HanShot1st Maha Guru

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    AGP 8x is 66mhz PCIe is 99mhz. Not that much different and hasnt made a difference yet. NVidia is making a mistake, but it's probably because they dont have a good bridge solution like ATI does. ATI will probably make AGP cards for r520 and they will sell like hotcakes.
     

  11. thevoid

    thevoid Master Guru

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    Hey!

    The time when you could compare performance only on the "Mhz" is long gone. Different architectures have different efficienty, and bandwidth is not determined ( and mostly not ) by the "Mhz". Above that, PCI-Express is a *serial* bus solution, AGP is *parallel*. They have different aspects of functioning. There are two completely different things.

    Going back on topic, I think the fact that the 7800 will not have an AGP version is not such tragedy, because it will probably be CPU-limited on every system that is not highest of the highest-end, "thoudands of dollars PC". Also if you can "throw out" $600 on a GeForce 7800, you could change your whole mainboard and CPU for the *best* that exists on the market for a couple of hundred dollars more. So basically it is insane to put a GeForce 7800 on an "average" PC like AthlonXP Barton or Sempron, or even 2800+ or 3000+ Athlon64`s. These processors simply don`t have the power to push a GeForce 7800 (GTX).

    On the other hand, when NVIDIA will release their "mainstream" 7-Series graphics cards ( 7800GTX is the *high-end* ), like, let`s sayt 7600GT or 7200 or whatever, they will 100% release it also in AGP8x form, because the target segment for these cards are people with "normal" computers like the majority of the customers have. Very very few people have the highest high-end PC`s. Nvidia wants to make profit, and the profit is in the *mainstream* market. AGP will live on for quite a long time from now!

    :cool:
     
  12. adrichardson

    adrichardson Guest

    True - if you can afford a 7800 you won't worry about the small cost of replacing a motherboards, particularly seeing as you can carry all of your components over. I don't think Nvidia would do something as stupid as refusing to release any of the 7 series in agp, but that's a long way off - the 6600 and 6200 are still relatively recent additions to the lineup, so it's unlikely that they'll want anything competing with them for a good while. The only thing the 7800gtx is vaguely price competitive with at the moment is the 6800 ultra, and I'm sure the Ultra will come down in price as a consequence.
     
  13. michael22

    michael22 Member

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    we gota move on some time.
     
  14. T8000

    T8000 Master Guru

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    Upgrade

    Because nothing happened to make CPU's noticably better for gaming in the past 2 years, it is not unlikely to see people spending the money saved for a CPU + MB + GPU upgrade on just a very fast (and expensive) GF7800 AGP.

    So I assume that Nvidia will have the AGP version ready soon enough. It may even work with the old HSI bridge, but a slightly updated version seems more likely.
     
  15. Grendel_66

    Grendel_66 Master Guru

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    Who cares if nVidea won't release it -- any manufactor could grab the bridge chip and crank out a G70 based AGP card. And I bet some will :)
     

  16. EagleClaw

    EagleClaw Master Guru

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    I just can't believe they wouldn't release a AGP card considering ATI is, they would/could be losing a huge part of the market to ATI.


    I mean hell if I was going to upgrade cards now I would go ATI if they offered the only AGP.

    I also think by the time ATI releases (months yet?) Nvidia will have a AGP ready.
     
  17. knivestv

    knivestv Master Guru

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    Well, using percentages it's 50% more.

    If you could make a 3 gig CPU go 50% faster, you would do it right?

    Small numbers don't mean it's not worth doing. I bet most people here have clocked some sort of hardware just a few MHz at the risk of losing their stuff for no more than a couple of percent gain, so half as much extra is a big deal and will be a noticeable performance jump as new cards progress. My old celeron ran much better with 133 memory instead of 100, as it was quite literally a 33% increase in memory speed. Half life was killer back then, even on dialup with that upgrade!

    knivestv
     
  18. butterwaach

    butterwaach Master Guru

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    companies arent allowed to change anything on the reference design so i guess ur theory is wrong (alltought i wish any company would do that!)
     
  19. butterwaach

    butterwaach Master Guru

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    you should read the post above! performance (specially pci and agp) has really not that much effect on the perfomance! try to oc ur agp port and see for yourself! i bet you wont see any changes (im sure cuz i didnt see any :D)
     
  20. knivestv

    knivestv Master Guru

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    I know I know, it's the future cards that will have the difference not the ones on the market today. Sorry I didn't make that clear the way I put it. The transition always takes a couple of years from one technology to another and then it begins to improve.

    Same was in effect when we first changed to AGP. The first GeForce AGP was same performance roughly as any rival still on PCI, and everyone asked the same question "why change?". I waited until GeForce2 came out and got the GTS version. Now nobody uses PCI graphics cards for games anymore.

    It will make a difference, just not right now. PCI-E just opens the doors to new designs and better performance. Everything new has to start somewhere, and it will jump up like AGP did. PCI-E will allow for better, faster, different more complicated designs. But first they have to be invented! PCI-E is brand new in design terms, so they gotta make the new card architectures first and figure out what will run on it.

    The 7800 is just the start. Total redesign of graphics architecture is what comes next. And it will be costly, so expect high prices on the new stuff for a while.

    To put it visually, this line represents a 66MHz bus and it's effect on the total output of todays graphics architecture:

    -----

    and this line is a 99MHz bus:

    ------

    doesn't look much different does it? That's why we get no noticeable performance increase, like you said.

    In 2 years, complete redesigns that sound insanely hi spec beyond most peoples comprehension will be available. But not if we stay hooked on AGP. Guaranteed.

    2 years pass, and an "old" 66MHz line with total redesign of architecture, (obviously not compatible AGP because it's for PCI-E) looks like this:

    ------------------------------

    same line, only bigger with the redesign, so obviously bus speeds now have more of an effect than before, because the new architecture allows it to make a serious difference.

    so 99MHz would look like this:

    ----------------------------------------

    Now you can and will see the performance improvement. Nvidia have to embrace the new stuff first though and throw some designs in the pot. Manufacturers are not in the habit of changing for the sake of change. New designs cost millions, so are very risky. They change because they know they can make improvements using PCI-E. It's too costly to change without there being advantages to it. This is just the next step in the next few years of great new toys for us - the end users.

    knivestv
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2005

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