Italy lockdown ...how bad is the Coronavirus?

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by airbud7, Mar 10, 2020.

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  1. angelgraves13

    angelgraves13 Ancient Guru

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    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...d-19-was-there-in-december-2019-idUSKBN23Q1J9
    https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-07-...ge-sample-from-Nov-2019-RPlhjBIAJW/index.html
    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-53257101

    Well no one also cares about your documentation either, so what else is new?

    It clearly says it's an early warning sign that covid is in the area if it's found in the sewage, but no...nothing to see here. Must be a "one-off" right? People don't want to believe that most covid cases are not detected because most people won't have any symptoms ever.
     
  2. Reardan

    Reardan Master Guru

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    No one is disputing that the virus can be found in sewage. But I'm not going to let you do this bait and switch where you link a bunch of cities that found the virus for the first time in December, January, February, and pretend like that validates your claim that it's been around for a year and a half.

    So we can wrap this up, you couldn't produce where another city had found it in the sewage in early 2019, which you said they did, and you said was contained within the articles you linked. You also said that we couldn't detect a large number of cases you claim existed because "most people have no symptoms" but you claim you did have it, and you had symptoms, and that covid was at least partially responsible for the particularly bad flu season we had that killed tens of thousands in the US alone, which means that hundreds of thousands of people had to be infected at current hospitalization rates which wouldn't even be accurate because YOU SAID it mutated to become more deadly in 2019... and yet when we initially found the virus, we couldn't find these people. Testing didn't find the massive population which you're claiming already had it, and it couldn't find the hundreds of thousands (millions?) that would've had antibodies.

    Fantastical delusion
     
  3. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    Just to clarify, who exactly is this subset of individuals that don't want to believe that most cases of Covid are not detected and what is their rational for this thinking? The entire train of thought is seriously flawed.

    What people are concerned about are those that do have it, what it has done to them and how many have died from it or had it contributed to their death. The only argument I can see you making from the ethereal numbers of people who do have it but don't know it is that the rate of infection vs complications vs death is a much much smaller percentage than the current figures shown. But people do not care about a percentage that is currently less than 0.1% what they do care about is a number such as 55,000 or that the statistical data for year on year deaths shows that countries that have been heavily affected by Coronavirus have shown an increase in death numbers over year on year trends. The latter is concern based on statistical data derived through actual testing and actual 'known' numbers whereas the former is based wholly on a concept of numbers that can only be verified through literally testing every single person on the planet or in this case a theory literally pulled out of thin air, that a much larger percentage of people have or have had Covid 19 and not ever known about it.
     
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  4. angelgraves13

    angelgraves13 Ancient Guru

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    I said I had the flu bad in 2019, but since then haven't really had anything besides a mild flu in late Feb-March, which everyone I know also got in the same time. Everyone in my mom's building had a fever for a day around that time and then it went away.

    They haven't tested all 320 million Americans, and testing them all would be pointless as you can test negative and still have the virus and continue to test negatives for days while you still have the virus. Not to mention you can test positive after you don't have symptoms for up to a week after you've recovered, and for some longer. Asymptomatic spread is probably closer to 50-75% at this point, but since we can't test everyone, we'll never know the real number.

    Antibodies can disappear almost immediately after you recover, especially if you get a mild version of it. You'd only have detectable antibodies if you had a severe infection or if you had the original SARS or MERS. This virus is so weak for so many that they may never have detectable antibodies, and that's a fact. You can look it up.
     

  5. angelgraves13

    angelgraves13 Ancient Guru

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    Just because someone dies with covid doesn't mean they died of covid, and we will never know the real number of people who died of the virus. The numbers will be disputed just like 1918 Spanish flu, which range from 20 million to 100 million deaths. Which is it? We count everyone who died with the virus as a covid death because they "maybe" died of complications, or not even test them all at and call it a "presumed" death? Where do we draw the line?

    How many people died of other causes because they didn't go to the hospital out of fear of becoming infected with covid? Heart attacks, strokes, cancer... let's just lump them all under "presumed" covid deaths?
     
  6. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    You failed to answer the question posed. You spun a lot of well worn and frankly tiresome by this point nonsense and threw in a mix of the usual count everything as Covid rubbish but totally failed to answer the posed question.

    So who are they? What is their rational for not believing in this hypothetical set of masses with the virus who don't know about it? Why would they ignore it? and other than changing the point on what is a pretty small percentage what exactly is the point you're trying to make by stating what is a logical fallacy?

    Doing an awful lot of this now aren't we? Pull a number or theory out of the air to pass off as a point before caveating it with a throw away statement about how it's not been tested so we will never know. It's great because you get to try and pass off an untested and unproven 'theory' as a fact combined with the added security that it never will be proven or in fact ever tested.

    What you meant to say is that Asymptomatic spread is a factor in the viruses spread but without further mass testing within the community it is impossible to determine how big a factor it currently plays.
    But that unconfirmed none committal statement doesn't sound quite as a good as a solid pulled out of thin air number now does it?
     
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  7. angelgraves13

    angelgraves13 Ancient Guru

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    Nobody knows the "correct" numbers, so let's just say that there's a lot of presymptomatic spread, as the term asymptomatic is also incorrect, and is used to describe people who "never" develop symptoms, of which there could be many. Someone who never shows symptoms has very little reason to ever go get tested. I've heard quite a few people say they won't get tested because they fear they'll test positive and be forced to quarantine, and that they'd rather not know. Don't know how I feel about that...but if the test is a choice, then I guess that's their right, even if people think it's irresponsible.

    They check my temperature in a few locations when I go to pick up food for delivery. What doesn't make sense is, what if I have the virus and don't have a temperature? Also, what if someone has a temperature, but they don't have the virus and have the flu or a low-grade fever from any number of infections, such as UTI?

    Sorry, don't mean to ask more questions than I answer, but I don't think anyone has the answers to some of them, but thought I'd ask them anyway. I swear I'm not doing it to piss anyone off, it's just honest to god curiosity in a time when there's a lot of questions, but no one to answer them. I'm not expecting anyone to have defnitive answers, as none of us here are experts, and every answer is more or less someone's personal opinion. It seems lately everyone wants to attack people who have opinions rather than asking the same questions. They refer to experts, who for lack of a better term...don't seem to know anything about coronavirus 2019.

    How many times has Fauci changed his mind about if we can be reinfected with the virus? Let's also not forget when in March, they told Americans to not wear masks unless they're sick.

    Let's also not forget when WHO made some really stupid comments about asymptomatic spread and then retracted them. I honestly don't know how that woman still has a job.

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomatic-spread-covid-19/
     
  8. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    This is really very, very simple. WEAR A GD MASK. Then it is irrelevant if you're carrying the virus but don't have symptoms. Fauci has not changed his mind, as more becomes known, more becomes known and guidance changes. You know, like what happens every time something NOVEL or NEW happens. Fauci did not advise against wearing masks. He was stuck the the untenable position of there NOT BEING ENOUGH PPE for those who needed it. That is STILL an issue where PPE is in short supply. So the FOCUS was on use what PPE there was for those first line folks that needed them. I honestly don't know why you're wasting everyone's time attacking those who ARE trying to make this better and those like President Dimwit with INTENTION making it worse. Yeah, lets not forget that in your list of things to not forget.
     
  9. angelgraves13

    angelgraves13 Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, we know why he said not to wear a mask. I told people early on they should wear a mask because they were saying that because of PPE shortage. The damage was done though, as people lost trust in the CDC.
     
  10. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    No, he did not say that. Please stop spreading bullshit, thanks.
     

  11. angelgraves13

    angelgraves13 Ancient Guru

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    He said you should only wear it if you're sick because it doesn't help otherwise, which is kind of true.

    The mask doesn't protect you...it protects other people.

    Why are you even on this forum? You argue with everyone about everything.
     
  12. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    You're the one who is asking for input and answers and now you're attacking me for REPLYING and correcting your factual errors. Again, THERE WAS AN EXTREME SHORTAGE OF PPE FOR FIRST LINE RESPONDERS. EARLY ON IT WAS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR EVERYONE TO RUSH OUT AND BUY MASKS. This is a fact anyone can check. Maybe images work best for you

    [​IMG]

    Why did you even ask if you are going to ATTACK and PERSONALLY INSULT someone trying to help you? Because you're just another Trumpswap trying to sneak your scumbag politics on the forum. Why are YOU on this forum? Please stop INTENTIONALLY spreading bullshit, thanks.
     
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  13. angelgraves13

    angelgraves13 Ancient Guru

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    Hahahahahaha...you're funny. I like you.

    You seem to believe everyone is a Trump supporter.

    I'll vote for Kanye just to prove you wrong.
     
  14. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    Thank you for as a fact confirming for everyone your intent IS to TROLL this thread and you are a POS.
    Nope, only real dirtbags like you are Trumpswabs. There are very few here actually and they are easy to spot. Being educated and tech savy is not in the wheelhouse of Trumpswabs. Now, if you're smart, you'll bail, but I suspect you're not.
     
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  15. angelgraves13

    angelgraves13 Ancient Guru

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    You're a funny guy, and you get a like. Keep calling me a POS and a Trump supporter. You're literally killing me right now...I'm on the floor laughing.

    I'm gonna send you a friend request. I think you need a friend.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020

  16. Hilbert Hagedoorn

    Hilbert Hagedoorn Don Vito Corleone Staff Member

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    Gents .. behave ..
     
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  17. angelgraves13

    angelgraves13 Ancient Guru

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    America going back into lockdown.

    Seem people will blame Trump for everything, kind of how like people blame the devil for everything that's wrong with the world. Like it's Trump's fault the country is locking down again....it's not. Nothing will stop the spread of the virus. We can flatten the curve all we like, but it'll bounce back the moment we open up.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/14/politics/donald-trump-states-economy-coronavirus/index.html
     
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  18. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    Wouldn't exposure eventually build up a sort of resistance to the virus though natural resistance could take a very long time and besides something else could pop up with different characteristics and with the globalization affected people could have gone through different regions or event countries before it's identified.

    Curious as to how this will develop and how effective some of the current countermeasures will be plus it's weighted against trade and tourism so it looks like it's going to be up and down for a while as a result.
    Not an expert or anything though, best I can do is try to limit exposure and hope the body can deal with it best as possible I suppose with all the unknowns on how this situation will continue.

    Messily I suppose is how the situation will be for a while and also various attempts to prevent larger outbreaks but as to how effective that will be if at all well just have to see how things go.
    (Or just outright ignore it and pretend it's nothing which seems to be a thing too far as overall attitude towards the virus or even other people go which is a problem on it's own.)
     
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  19. toyo

    toyo Master Guru

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    The image is incomplete without the dems encouraging people to go and party early on, moaning about xenophobia, endless fake left rags like Vox moaning about how the flu is more dangerous, WHO lying about masks, WHO changing their tune about how they learned about the outbreak in China, the HCQ absolute insanity and fake "studies" used to own blompf.

    Do I need to carry on?

    This is the mistake people make. You have allowed deep politicization of science. It's abhorrent and despicable, and there has to be severe punishment for doing it. From climate change, to gender, to the absolute disaster of social "sciences" and the deconstructionist pushing that aims to collapse anything resembling normality/tradition, to the fundies denying the pandemic and climate change.

    You don't get to use science to push your political narrative. You simply don't. Science is the politically neutral attempt to describe objective reality. Not your tool to moan about some politician that will not be with us in mere months.

    Oh, and don't even get me started about the thousands of medical "experts" that had the audacity to treat BLM protests preferentially, as if objective reality cares that your skin is black. Don't get me started on the absolute activist insanity pushed in their letter.

    Beyond redemption IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  20. chanw4

    chanw4 Ancient Guru

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    oh climate change, another topic that plague with pseudo science and political agenda.
     
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