Italy lockdown ...how bad is the Coronavirus?

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by airbud7, Mar 10, 2020.

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  1. Reardan

    Reardan Master Guru

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    Countless viruses have worse second infections, Dengue fever, malaria, we see this with chicken pox/shingles. This can even occur between different viruses, for instance, zika can be worsened by a previous dengue infection. And all this is before we even start talking about anyone who has permanent lung, heart, or brain damage from their previous infection which obviously leaves them more susceptible during subsequent infections.

    And you didn't have covid in 2019, and you don't have immunity to covid from that flu you had.
     
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  2. Reardan

    Reardan Master Guru

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    Let's think which is more likely: Enough virus was present in the Barcelona sewage system to be detected in an 800ml sample in March 2019, and then not again until the following January, and no other city in the world can replicate the finding, or the lab or researchers have made a mistake? I mean literally just think for a moment about what you're saying. Your contention is that there must have been enough people sick to be detectable in a sample smaller than a bottle of soda, then that the virus inexplicably disappeared and was completely undetectable for almost an entire year, and then when we started testing we could find very few cases of the virus, despite it having a year to spread completely unknown, and with no precautions, but somehow it caused tens of thousands of deaths?? And we can't seem to find any additional examples in sewage around the world from this time? It's absurd, it's completely absurd.
     
  3. Reardan

    Reardan Master Guru

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    Can you just copy paste for us, since I'm apparently an idiot who can't read, where it says that the virus was found in sewage in early 2019 outside this one case in Barcelona?

    No one cares what you've documented on your phone. I actually have documentation on mine about your documentation and how wrong it is. And no, it couldn't have spread as you suggest, or when we started testing we would've found tons of people with it and it would've shown up in all or most of the 2019 sewage samples from Barcelona. It's mind boggling how you can hold the position that sewage is a good way to find the virus, which I agree with, and then in the next breath say that it continued to spread, but they didn't find anything additionally in the sewage for the rest of the year.
     
  4. Reardan

    Reardan Master Guru

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    No one is disputing that the virus can be found in sewage. But I'm not going to let you do this bait and switch where you link a bunch of cities that found the virus for the first time in December, January, February, and pretend like that validates your claim that it's been around for a year and a half.

    So we can wrap this up, you couldn't produce where another city had found it in the sewage in early 2019, which you said they did, and you said was contained within the articles you linked. You also said that we couldn't detect a large number of cases you claim existed because "most people have no symptoms" but you claim you did have it, and you had symptoms, and that covid was at least partially responsible for the particularly bad flu season we had that killed tens of thousands in the US alone, which means that hundreds of thousands of people had to be infected at current hospitalization rates which wouldn't even be accurate because YOU SAID it mutated to become more deadly in 2019... and yet when we initially found the virus, we couldn't find these people. Testing didn't find the massive population which you're claiming already had it, and it couldn't find the hundreds of thousands (millions?) that would've had antibodies.

    Fantastical delusion
     

  5. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    Just to clarify, who exactly is this subset of individuals that don't want to believe that most cases of Covid are not detected and what is their rational for this thinking? The entire train of thought is seriously flawed.

    What people are concerned about are those that do have it, what it has done to them and how many have died from it or had it contributed to their death. The only argument I can see you making from the ethereal numbers of people who do have it but don't know it is that the rate of infection vs complications vs death is a much much smaller percentage than the current figures shown. But people do not care about a percentage that is currently less than 0.1% what they do care about is a number such as 55,000 or that the statistical data for year on year deaths shows that countries that have been heavily affected by Coronavirus have shown an increase in death numbers over year on year trends. The latter is concern based on statistical data derived through actual testing and actual 'known' numbers whereas the former is based wholly on a concept of numbers that can only be verified through literally testing every single person on the planet or in this case a theory literally pulled out of thin air, that a much larger percentage of people have or have had Covid 19 and not ever known about it.
     
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  6. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    You failed to answer the question posed. You spun a lot of well worn and frankly tiresome by this point nonsense and threw in a mix of the usual count everything as Covid rubbish but totally failed to answer the posed question.

    So who are they? What is their rational for not believing in this hypothetical set of masses with the virus who don't know about it? Why would they ignore it? and other than changing the point on what is a pretty small percentage what exactly is the point you're trying to make by stating what is a logical fallacy?

    Doing an awful lot of this now aren't we? Pull a number or theory out of the air to pass off as a point before caveating it with a throw away statement about how it's not been tested so we will never know. It's great because you get to try and pass off an untested and unproven 'theory' as a fact combined with the added security that it never will be proven or in fact ever tested.

    What you meant to say is that Asymptomatic spread is a factor in the viruses spread but without further mass testing within the community it is impossible to determine how big a factor it currently plays.
    But that unconfirmed none committal statement doesn't sound quite as a good as a solid pulled out of thin air number now does it?
     
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  7. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    This is really very, very simple. WEAR A GD MASK. Then it is irrelevant if you're carrying the virus but don't have symptoms. Fauci has not changed his mind, as more becomes known, more becomes known and guidance changes. You know, like what happens every time something NOVEL or NEW happens. Fauci did not advise against wearing masks. He was stuck the the untenable position of there NOT BEING ENOUGH PPE for those who needed it. That is STILL an issue where PPE is in short supply. So the FOCUS was on use what PPE there was for those first line folks that needed them. I honestly don't know why you're wasting everyone's time attacking those who ARE trying to make this better and those like President Dimwit with INTENTION making it worse. Yeah, lets not forget that in your list of things to not forget.
     
  8. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    No, he did not say that. Please stop spreading bullshit, thanks.
     
  9. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    You're the one who is asking for input and answers and now you're attacking me for REPLYING and correcting your factual errors. Again, THERE WAS AN EXTREME SHORTAGE OF PPE FOR FIRST LINE RESPONDERS. EARLY ON IT WAS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR EVERYONE TO RUSH OUT AND BUY MASKS. This is a fact anyone can check. Maybe images work best for you

    [​IMG]

    Why did you even ask if you are going to ATTACK and PERSONALLY INSULT someone trying to help you? Because you're just another Trumpswap trying to sneak your scumbag politics on the forum. Why are YOU on this forum? Please stop INTENTIONALLY spreading bullshit, thanks.
     
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  10. HeavyHemi

    HeavyHemi Ancient Guru

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    Thank you for as a fact confirming for everyone your intent IS to TROLL this thread and you are a POS.
    Nope, only real dirtbags like you are Trumpswabs. There are very few here actually and they are easy to spot. Being educated and tech savy is not in the wheelhouse of Trumpswabs. Now, if you're smart, you'll bail, but I suspect you're not.
     
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  11. Hilbert Hagedoorn

    Hilbert Hagedoorn Don Vito Corleone Staff Member

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    Gents .. behave ..
     
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  12. JonasBeckman

    JonasBeckman Ancient Guru

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    Wouldn't exposure eventually build up a sort of resistance to the virus though natural resistance could take a very long time and besides something else could pop up with different characteristics and with the globalization affected people could have gone through different regions or event countries before it's identified.

    Curious as to how this will develop and how effective some of the current countermeasures will be plus it's weighted against trade and tourism so it looks like it's going to be up and down for a while as a result.
    Not an expert or anything though, best I can do is try to limit exposure and hope the body can deal with it best as possible I suppose with all the unknowns on how this situation will continue.

    Messily I suppose is how the situation will be for a while and also various attempts to prevent larger outbreaks but as to how effective that will be if at all well just have to see how things go.
    (Or just outright ignore it and pretend it's nothing which seems to be a thing too far as overall attitude towards the virus or even other people go which is a problem on it's own.)
     
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  13. toyo

    toyo Master Guru

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    The image is incomplete without the dems encouraging people to go and party early on, moaning about xenophobia, endless fake left rags like Vox moaning about how the flu is more dangerous, WHO lying about masks, WHO changing their tune about how they learned about the outbreak in China, the HCQ absolute insanity and fake "studies" used to own blompf.

    Do I need to carry on?

    This is the mistake people make. You have allowed deep politicization of science. It's abhorrent and despicable, and there has to be severe punishment for doing it. From climate change, to gender, to the absolute disaster of social "sciences" and the deconstructionist pushing that aims to collapse anything resembling normality/tradition, to the fundies denying the pandemic and climate change.

    You don't get to use science to push your political narrative. You simply don't. Science is the politically neutral attempt to describe objective reality. Not your tool to moan about some politician that will not be with us in mere months.

    Oh, and don't even get me started about the thousands of medical "experts" that had the audacity to treat BLM protests preferentially, as if objective reality cares that your skin is black. Don't get me started on the absolute activist insanity pushed in their letter.

    Beyond redemption IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  14. chanw4

    chanw4 Ancient Guru

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    oh climate change, another topic that plague with pseudo science and political agenda.
     
  15. Kaleid

    Kaleid Ancient Guru

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    Much more denialism because it's more profitable.
    Humans are an ecological disaster, we are much worse than this virus to the planet and other animals.
     
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  16. Kaleid

    Kaleid Ancient Guru

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    "treat BLM protests preferentially, as if objective reality cares that your skin is black"
    Oh, people absolutely care. Even if you look for work and have a black sounding name then good luck, you will not be asked to an interview as often as a person with a white name. If you go to a hospital you can as a black person expect to receive less painkillers. The examples are huge in numbers.
    And as if xenophobia didn't matter. Why did a certain person in 2016 make it part of his political platform? Why was the fake caravan* story invented for the midterms? Fairly simple, it happens to work.

    *
    "The migrants, according to FOX News reporting, are more than 2 months away if any of them actually come. But tomorrow is one week before the midterm election, which is what all of this is about. There is no invasion. No one is coming to get you. There is nothing at all to worry about. When they did this to us, got us all riled up in April, remember, the result was 14 arrest. We're America, we can handle it." Shep Smith @ Fox
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
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  17. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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  18. toyo

    toyo Master Guru

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    Nothing you mentioned has anything to do with the science behind the pandemic, not one thing.
    The virus will happily infect blacks too, at the same rate. It does not discriminate, since they're part of the same species. It's rather irrelevant for something that might not even be classified as a living organism what your skin color is, it is only driven by the its evolutionary impulse to replicate itself.
    There was a letter signed by medical experts that tried to make racism in a pandemic, in an attempt to justify the mass BLM protests. No. It's not how it works, you see, a pandemic is about pathogens that get to spread widely across the Earth. Meanwhile, I in Romania cannot care less about US politics. However, the real pandemic affects me just as well, especially as I happen to actually work as a medic.
    As I said, keep the politics OUT of science, or you discredit it. Science does simply not give a singular damn about all the outrage and feelings we're dealing in the real world.
    Each of the attempts to inject politics in science is insanely noxious and degrades the public's trust in authorities. I personally don't like it when some fundie church does it, nor when the secular religion of woke does it.
    Also, you need to put that US-centric stuff away. You have to realize the Internet is a global community with diverse problems. You don't see me coming to wash my country's dirty clothes publicly here and moan about all the ugly stuff.
    Yet for some reason, we get US politics galore, which are the most toxic of the bunch and infects almost anything. Imagine having US-inspired BLM protests (or anti-lockdown protests, those started in the US too) in countries that have basically nothing to do with all this. It HAS to be kept out, American-centrism is obnoxious and thinking that the rest of this huge planet cares about your toxic politics enough to see them alluded to and discussed non stop is a significant case of arrogance.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  19. Reardan

    Reardan Master Guru

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    https://www.apmresearchlab.org/covid/deaths-by-race

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-f...d-19-deaths-are-even-bigger-than-they-appear/

    It seems to be discriminating. Kind of unclear to me why you would come into a discussion that's been largely about American impact of coronavirus and complain that we're talking about it. Of course there's other countries, you guys should pipe up and talk about your experiences there instead of whining about us talking about our's. But of course you did none of that.
     
  20. toyo

    toyo Master Guru

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    Not all countries are infected by racialism like the US, nor do we desire it anywhere near. It's poisonous, utter toxic shite that should be socially ostracized on both ends of the political spectrum.
    The solution is not to talk more about it and bring each country in to moan about their perceived social and cultural issues, but to keep things about medical science.
    It's irrelevant for me if I read the CT scan of libertarian rightoid that got infected while moaning about "muh freedoms and liberties" or the scan of a BLM protester that got infected moaning about muh systemic institutional racism. Your lungs look the same to me when infected and you'll suffer similar symptoms.
    Again, not everyone lives in an ethnic warfare infested country deeply divided by something as trivial as skin color. Nor should the rest of us be be subjected to your toxic racialized politics in a topic about a global pandemic.
    And keep in mind, you don't see Poles moaning about PiS winning elections, you don't see Hungarians moaning about freedom of the press and speech, you don't see Italians moaning about the infected migrants.
    It's almost exclusively Americans that have the privilege to always, always bring their toxic politics in discussion and go "Orange/commie man bad reeeee" as an explanation of every controversial event.
    Racial essentialism needs to be cause for severe social ostracization and shaming as it used to be. No exceptions.
    And don't think I take sides. Basically all my previous posts in this topic were mocking people obviously on the right posting conspiratard videos and moaning about China. It has to stop, at least in here IMO. It's unbearable and makes participation for international users a pain, as we always get faced with the same toxic US crap.
     
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