Italy lockdown ...how bad is the Coronavirus?

Discussion in 'The Guru's Pub' started by airbud7, Mar 10, 2020.

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  1. Brasky

    Brasky Ancient Guru

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    Gathering without masks is dumb no matter who does it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
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  2. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    I think The DeeGee may have been referencing the ongoing organized riots.
     
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  3. Brasky

    Brasky Ancient Guru

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    Ahh, sorry. Fixed it.
     
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  4. toyo

    toyo Master Guru

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    I am now almost convinced that WHO is deliberately trying to sabotage medical science. I almost feel directly attacked by their deep, deep incompetence. The masks thing was bad, I don't know ONE medic that didn't facepalm, a significant part of our training is understanding how to do our best to prevent infection, for us, for our patients. Respiratory protection for respiratory infectious diseases is elementary medicine.

    Now this below. I don't have studies, just my anecdotal experience from my city, in which a school with adolescents that were mostly asymptomatic and infected was our first outbreak focal point. The kids spread it to their families and colleagues. They were not even coughing and stood 3 weeks for "nothing" getting bored in the hospital, because we knew they were contagious. This situation was hardly unique.

    So what's going on? What's the purpose of basically reducing trust in medical science through repeated conflicting info on multiple subjects related to COVID? Isn't there enough conspiracy?

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattpe...avirus-very-rare-but-experts-raise-questions/
     

  5. jbscotchman

    jbscotchman Ancient Guru

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    redpill.jpg
     
  6. toyo

    toyo Master Guru

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    The red pill is objective scientific truth, not denialism. Good try tho'.
    Objective science does not judge what political inclination people protesting are, it judges potential for viral spread.
    As I said, I have my political convictions, but I strictly keep them out of my job. We swore an oath as medics, you know? It is not supposed to be symbolic. It's supposed to represent our "guild" and what we try to do.
     
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  7. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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  8. toyo

    toyo Master Guru

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    Pretty bad gatekeeping IMO. We need actual transparency, not damage control.
    We cannot even properly determine who is fully asymptomatic and presymptomatic. Young people like the cases in my city won't really remember if they had a minor fever or headache. We've had addicts that thought the symptoms were just some bad drug batch or abstinence since lockdowns=drug crisis. We've had people with chronic bronchopneumopathy or lung cancer or even tuberculosis that had the same symptoms they were suffering for years of, i.e. coughing. Weakened organism, yet for some (genetic?) reason, spared by the same virus eating the lungs of a healthy 30 years old that's intubated for 2 weeks.
    It's not really a perfect science. It's OK to shut up if unsure. It's OK to say we don't know yet.
    It's rather not OK to give repeated conflicting information. This is at least the 3rd such instance for WHO. First, H2H transmission (a tweet that was misread, as it said preliminary). No sane medic expected this to not be contagious. SARS-like novel CoV. Same symptoms. People coughing their lungs off. It's not hard to suspect H2H in these transmissions, because we've been through SARS and MERS. Why say otherwise, with just preliminary data?
    Then the masks, utter insanity. Medics not wanting to even see patients without PPE, Chinese doctors in full protective gear, yet masks not needed for the public. Well, wow. 180 on that.
    And now this. There's a point to be made about HCQ, especially as all the warning against it were given SIMULTANEOUSLY as we were feeding (and we still do) HCQ to patients all over Europe.
    Why not shut up if unsure? That's what I am questioning. Just shut up and do more science. Stop speculating on data. More studies, less early conclusions.
     
  9. fantaskarsef

    fantaskarsef Ancient Guru

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    Thank you for pointing out that not everybody having an opinion does know something.
    There's a difference between opinions and facts... something all too easily ignored.
    And most people with their red pill memes in particular actually base posting it on opinions, not facts.
     
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  10. toyo

    toyo Master Guru

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    I think with this I have rest my case made in the posts above. No I don't think WHO should be defunded. No I don't think it's China's. I am 110% for international cooperation, and the UN and WHO are of paramount importance.
    But they need to be responsible. In science there are standards, not gossip and worthless speculation.

    https://www.axios.com/who-asymptomatic-coronavirus-69c56ce3-41e0-4ea7-ab2a-de866713b4cf.html

    It also looks like (unsurprisingly), other medics have had similar opinions to mine, shaped by their clinic experience and acted just as puzzled.

    By the way, there's a developing movement that is trying to "shutdownSTEM". There are scandals in the chemistry world. There are multiple attacks on objective, data-driven science, from left and right. Why? This is what I am wondering the most. What can we achieve by this, after people like Giordano Bruno had to pay with their lives for daring to challenge irrational dogma, are we going back to that?
     

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  11. Alessio1989

    Alessio1989 Ancient Guru

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    Some news from Italy: today the count of current positive people went under the total number of deaths. Good or bad? Judge Yourself from the graphs, 283 recognised cases today, 192 of them (~68%) all in Lombardy. In my province from tomorrow masks will be mandatory only on situation where you cannot maintain at least 1m of distance from other people, even inside buildings. Too early? Probably even if we register a couple of new cases per week here...
     
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  12. jbscotchman

    jbscotchman Ancient Guru

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    I'll just let my man ABL break it down.

     
  13. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Ancient Guru

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    He has a point, the hypocrisy is off the scale. These people either lied from the start or decided that they would rather risk people die than appearing racist.

    The George Floyd murder has probably helped speed all this up, if we hit the end of June and cases continue to keep going down in places where protests have taken place then people will take that as a sign it's not that dangerous to leave your home, which is the best case scenario.

    Worst case would be a huge increase and not just for the obvious reasons, but it will have people at each others throats even more than we are right now.
     
  14. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    Sorry what's he broken down apart from proving what an utter idiot he is.

    Compares it to the flu on more than several occasions
    Hand waves 400,000 world wide deaths and that's only so far
    Says it's a hoax and then literally seconds later back tracks to say no it just wasn't that bad that's all. 100,000+ and counting so far in the US.

    He's right about the social media playing things up though but you see it works both ways because it allows idiots like him to also have their opinion plastered all over the place as well. Though judging by the back tracking and ill informed delivery of the content I strongly suspect the irony of that is lost on him.
     
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  15. jbscotchman

    jbscotchman Ancient Guru

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    I'm gonna need a couple days to gather my thoughts, an lay out FACTS that the virus and the riots are connected, and is basically a reason for civil war
    Wow, I did not imagine such a hateful response would ever be posted. Seriously, I'm kind of in shock right now.
     

  16. The Laughing Ma

    The Laughing Ma Ancient Guru

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    Anyone stupid enough to hand wave the death of 400,000 people deserves to be treated for the idiot they are, he didn't even attempt to deliver it with an ounce of humility more concerned with trying to force the agenda that HE and his opinions would be vindicated.
     
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  17. chanw4

    chanw4 Ancient Guru

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    Don't you know science is racist and need to be 'decolonise'?? ;)
     
  18. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    I do not view his post as hateful. Look, Italy, twice as many dead as flu kills in a year. (Year has 2 flu seasons.) But it came there after flu season, not before.
    You can say that right now in Summer, we are at peak of resiliency and virus is at biggest disadvantage for spread.

    Once we count dead in a year from now, we'll know its real potential. And truth is that man pushed narrative, that virus is not much more dangerous than regular flu.
    And he does not want to hear about rebound. Well, he will, since he helps virus to continue its spread through summer and it will have good starting point in November.

    Guys in Italy finally got it close to state where one can call it under control. They have twice as many sick per capita than us. But there are other countries where it starts to fly fast.
    In US as country in question (video), COVID-19 killed already 3,5 times more people than flu does per year on average. And number of active cases is still growing, not falling.
    Conditions for spread of virus are still in favor of virus, not against it.
     
  19. Thegreatx

    Thegreatx New Member

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    Summer won't stop the virus too much, and quite possible it's going to last for a period of time. We've accomplished a lot, but we still have a long way to go.
     
  20. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Ancient Guru

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    Since mask does not protect one from cosmic rays. (Which btw, can in one random act wipe out life on 1/2 of planet or all life if strong enough.)
    You imply something more environmental. Something that traveled from Asia to Europe and US.

    But I can ensure you that COVID-19 is virus that kills people. Issue is that most of science claims that it is product of random mutations. While some top-class genetic virologists say that it has changes on so many places which are so drastic, that it can't be natural.
    (Closest cousin of COVID-19 is as close as any one of us and donkey/sheep/whatever not human.)
     
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