Is The Pentium 4 A Dead End?

Discussion in 'Processors and motherboards Intel' started by iltecsam, May 30, 2005.

  1. iltecsam

    iltecsam Member Guru

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    The p3 design Dothan overclocked to 2.4ghz beats even the mighty fx55 :eek: in some game benchmarks. Does very well for a mobile chip.

    Very Interesting read

    http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20050525/index.html








    I am counting on the Conroe to dethrone the fx55 :D
     
  2. Dr. Vodka

    Dr. Vodka Ancient Guru

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    IMHO the netburst architecture was a failure since it saw the light of the world.
    Just wait till they mod the dothan to make a desktop chip and AMD will have something "real" to fight against.
     
  3. iltecsam

    iltecsam Member Guru

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    Indeed! The Conroe Intel's codenamed next generation chip is on the dothan design! :D
     
  4. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    It actually was doing well during the Northwood era... but Prescott was a belly-flop, hot and barely went any faster, but it wasn't by any fault of Intel because .09 micron went terrible for everyone. I think AMD's performance lead has more to do with the integrated memory controller than higher IPC. Keep in mind that AMD quit the XP at 2.2 GHz, and probably could have squeezed out a 2.4 GHz if they really wanted to, judging by people with XP-M's at 2.6+ GHz. The Athlon 64 core is only 200 MHz faster then that (2.6 GHz), which is probably the result of strained silicon and IBM's SOI, and its definately not the 64-bit extensions that makes a 2.2 GHz Athlon 64 a 3500+ instead of 3200+, and as well all remember the XP's ratings were overly generous. A little bit of the lead is dual-channel, and the vast bulk is probably low memory latency from the integrated memory controller.

    If the .09 micron shrink had gone better and Intel had Tejas P4s at 4.0+ GHz, I think people would feel differently about them. They were supposed to have 1066 FSB, 2 MB cache and 4-way hyperthreading standard and started at 4.0 GHz, and now nothing will ever be faster then 3.8 GHz, and Intel regularly reserves many features for the EE line just to differentiate them and thus justify their absurd price.
     

  5. SorienOR

    SorienOR Ancient Guru

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    Ya but the Tejas also put out 150w of heat. I'm sure thats why it was cancelled.

    IMO its a sad thing when a processor with a 10year old core is the best thing Intel has.
     
  6. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    It put out 150 watts presumbably only because of the power leakage problem, and if Intel had known the extent of the problem in advance I'm sure they never would have planned it...

    The P-M thing is actually a bit suprising, as it seems to perform as well or even better then Athlon 64s at the same speed, yet it doesn't even have an integrated memory controller. I doubt that would be the case of P3s if they were clocked up to the same rate, though I suppose its possible.
     
  7. G L

    G L Don Juan

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  8. Liranan

    Liranan Ancient Guru

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    When I read that article a few days ago my jaw nearly fell through the floor and, for a second, I thought I had to go and ask the downstairs neighbour for my jaw... Finally Intel's realised that the P4 architecture is dead and that they're better off with 'older' technology than with this so called furnace called Netburst.

    I agree that the A64's technological superiority probably comes from the integrated memory controler which is a miracle ompared to the Northbridge sollution Intel blindly insists on using. The Dothan simply proves, once again, that speed isn't all, though it wouldn't surprise me if the Dothan CPU's could actually go all the way to 4 or even 5GHz without producing as much heat as the Prescotts do now because a 2.2 Dothan only produces 27W!!!! Incredible and to concider that's 90nm too. It makes me wonder what Intel spent all those millions on because even they admit that the P4's were a disgrace.

    What I'd love to see if a Dothan Dual Core... I'd love to have a Dothan 3GHz DC :D :D UBER POWER and that at only 70W!!! The 70W is only speculation but it's just to illustrate the amount of heat the Dothan will NOT produce compared to the Prescott. Also it's time Intel used all the money they have for other things than marketing because they have some catching up to do, technologically the 875 is still superior to the 945/955 and the nForce chipsets aren't even Northbridges, so they can't even be compared to whatever it is that Intel's making.

    The Dothan proves that the Northbridge solution isn't all together bad and it shows that good CPU technology can make all the difference in the world. Also Intel needs to do something about the fsb speed they seem to be stuck at and they need to start using the DDR2 memory they are forcing everyone to buy because DDR2 is ridiculously stupid and totally unnecessary if Intel's only going to reserve the 1066+MHz fsb for the EE's only because they just might as well make special motherboards and memory chips just for them so the rest of the world can make do with DDR 400Mhz, the speed at which the CPU's are stuck at anyway.

    Intel's invested too much money in DDR2 too simply drop that like they did Rambus, though Rambus was a total disaster as Rambus' technology was beyond stupid (very fast speeds with low bit rates) and DDR 266MHz memory used to be faster than Rambus. What Intel needs to do now is increase the fsb of the Dothan and increase the speed of the CPU to ~3GHz. Then it will really start competing with the FX series and will give the Intel something to be proud of. The only ace AMD will have up its sleave is the price of their CPU's and that's something Intel can't compete with though I have always thought Intel's CPU's were better than AMD's (try running an AMD without the hsf for longer than 5 seconds).

    After writing my 'essay' I came accross the following:
    http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050427_021539.html

    There is hope though the mobile version of the Yonah will only have 533MHz as fsb. And what totally amazed me was that the DC will have the same thermal output as the single core. That is just marvelous!! Now they need to cranck the fsb to 800+ and the CPU speed to 3GHz+ and I'll be sold!
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2005
  9. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    Well, the Dothan is definately a mobile-only CPU, so it will take some time before you'll see a desktop derative... I don't recall any roadmaps, but I wouldn't be suprised if was 2Q or 3Q 06. In the meantime you'd have to put up with the 915 mobile chipset and its 533 FSB, and no x86-64 support. Unfortunately, slower FSB, RAM, etc. seems to be a mobile characteristic. I think DDR-2 may use less power too, so that may explain some of that particular choice.

    As for DDR-2, I'll agree restricting 1066 FSB to the EEs was a monumental error in judgement, I can only see it justified if they just couldn't make enough chipsets that would run at that speed... and now they're at it again by making the 840 EE the only chip with hyperthreading, and for some reason even it doesn't have 1066 FSB. If their dual-cores had 1066 FSB and hyperthreading they might not look so second-rate compared to AMD's dual-core line. Instead they reserve the cool-sounding features for the chip no one actually buys, apparently just to give it a reason to exist... not good at all. Though the 800 FSB on the 840 EE does make me wonder if there isn't something strange going on their with the technology.
     
  10. Dr. Vodka

    Dr. Vodka Ancient Guru

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    Maybe intel is making the desktop version of the dothan??? Trying to make a very good chip that can outperfofm a DC 4800+ (maybe a pact with the demon hehe) at 3.2 ghz with a fsb of 3000 mhz, 1-4 megs of cache, a new socket and god knows what more (speculating)
     

  11. Liranan

    Liranan Ancient Guru

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    Yes there is a roadmap and if you read the links on this page you would see that Intel IS stepping over to the Dothan architecture and that they have Dual Cores and if the Dothan at 2.4 can outperform the FX55 then their DC's will easily outperform the X2's. The production of the 65nm will start this summer and they will be released soon.

    Go to Tomshardware and read the entire article they have about it (it's been there for days now) and read the links in this thread rather than speculate on something you don't know. Because to your almightly astonishment you might find that a CPU running at 2.4 and an fsb of 333MHz can actually whack the FX55. AMD is going to release the FX57 and then Intel only has to release thei desktop Dothan at the same speed and Intel is still faster.

    Such posts my friend don't promote your intelligence as all the information you need has already been posted and there are links.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2005
  12. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    As this post isn't doing much to promote yours, or at the very least your level of emotional maturity. Being uniformed or even a bit careless isn't against the rules of this forum, insulting people is.... so let's take a deep breath, shall we, and be a bit more tolerant of people who may not be quite the epic geeks that the two of us are?
     
  13. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    Just because all Intel would have to do is release a Dothan for the desktop at the same time does not mean that is what Intel will in fact do... Unfortunately switching gears can take some time, and Intel can't just shift all their production over to a new core overnight, especially when they've just now gotten dual-core P4s out the door. I really would not be suprised if the first desktop dothan appeared no sooner then 2H 06. Though of course there's little stopping you the enthusiast from getting one yourself now and overclocking it...

    I scanned the article around for a roadmap, didn't see... direct link, please? Keep in mind with roadmaps that the development cycle of a processor Intel has always said was mobile from the ground up does not necessarily mean it will make a simultaneous appearance for the desktop... in fact, I would expect a different revision for desktop. I don't think Intel can realistically backtrack on EM64T for the desktop (especially after people go for XP-64 with the P4 series), so if that link I posted is correct this is virtually guaranteed. I'm also pretty sure I've heard official talk of a .065 micron shrink for the dual-core P4, so a P-M desktop conversion would presumbably occur some time after that.

    Ah, here we go:

    "Mass-production of Yonah is scheduled to begin late this year with commercial products expected to become available in the first quarter of 2006."

    http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050602_143758.html

    I would definately expect some time to pass from Yonah's release and the desktop varient... like 2 quarters, perhaps.
     
  14. desdick

    desdick Master Guru

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    Darn. What a waste of money.:mad: :mad:
     
  15. Liranan

    Liranan Ancient Guru

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    I would like to appologise to everyone I might have insulted. I am a little stressed because there is the possibility that our third dog in 6 months will die of a highly contageous viral disease, though that doesn't justify my behaviour. As GL stated I overreacted and being misinformed or wrong is not a crime, being stupid and highly aggressive like myself is.

    However there is a mention that the 65nm will be based on the Dothan and that the Yonah will be a DC version of the Dothan.

    I find this pretty exciting even if it's simply because there will be some real competition for AMD on the high-end market, which AMD dominates, though I think that AMD should have a larger share of the market so that Intel is forced to make better products. Anyway, regardless of how well Intel does or does not I am, probably, switching over to AMD because I'm not going to pay for something very expensive when I can get very good performance for less money. I know I sounded like an Intel fanboy and I am, to a certain extent, but I've had enough of overpaying for my CPU's and an A64 clocked at 2.whatever is good enough for a while to come.

    Once again: I'm sorry and I will refraing from posting such idiotic remarks again, though as GL said we are two epic geeks, at least he said it! ;)
     

  16. G L

    G L Don Juan

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    Saw this, looks like the P-M based desktop replacement for the P4 is codenamed "Conroe"... says here Q3 06, though I'm not sure how official that is:

    "The 65nm Conroe and Merom are expected to ship in Q3 2006, two quarters after Yonah's debut with 'Napa', the third incarnation of Intel's Centrino platform. Conroe is expected to contain 4MB of L2 cache, 2MB associated with each core."

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/11/intel_conroe_revealed/
     
  17. Liranan

    Liranan Ancient Guru

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    I don't know if I should be happy or worried. The P-M has turned out to be a magnificent chip with the DC's producing the same amount of heat as the SC's. I can't wait untill Intel releases these chips though I doubt I'll have the patience to wait untill they're dropped in price enough to be economically worth it or available in China, though I wouldn't pay $500 in Europe just for one CPU. Anyway, by the time the CPU's have dropped in price we're probably talking 07, though that's mere speculation.

    In the meantime I still have my eyes set on an nForce 4 SLI chipset with a nice juicy vid card and that PCI-E memory card by Gigabyte, two video cards are just too expensive for me as a 6800 NU is already half of our monthly wage.

    We will see what the future brings but the specs of the P-M make it really worthwhile to buy Intel again, even if it's simply because of the incredibly low heat output.
     
  18. Coolppl

    Coolppl Master Guru

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    I just cant wait till Intel manages to go all the way back to the 486 architecture, pimp it out with MMX, MMX-2, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, Dual Cores, Hyper Threading and then manages to pwn all those 3.6ghz P4's and 4000+ Athlon 64's at 1ghz! HAHAHA

    j/k
     
  19. desdick

    desdick Master Guru

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    Seems like AMD people are very disturbed by this news.
     
  20. nutyo

    nutyo Ancient Guru

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    Well i have been riding the AMD Athlon 64 wave for quite a bit now and it has been a nice ride but it looks we are about to hit the rocky shores of P-M architecture. IMO intel got lucky, if it didn't have the old architecture to fall back on it would have sunk with the P4. However now it seems the tables are turning because while AMD was superior it still couldn't cut a bigger piece of the general market pie. Now with intel comming back to its senses and actually bringing in architecture that is superior to AMD's the future looks uncertain for AMD. I am hopeing like hell that AMD has another trick in the bag otherwise by 2010 it may be a one horse race. Of course though P-M architecture looks quite appealing now it is still yet to be seen how far it can be pushed and how fast it can be pushed there. It may have a low thermal output but it may not be able to make much more than 3GHz, it may be physically unachieveable. And i'd like to see if intel can control the power leakages at 65nm on this chip.

    Looks like performance wise the playing field has been leveled for the time being, unfortunatly for AMD being equal with Intel will make penetrating the public's stupidity even harder.
     

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