Is Mantle exclusive to ATI/AMD or can future nvidia drivers adopt Mantle too?

Discussion in 'Videocards - NVIDIA GeForce Drivers Section' started by dr_hycodan, Feb 1, 2014.

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  1. ---TK---

    ---TK--- Ancient Guru

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    Believe its been stated that most features would work if nvidia adopted it. That would be the deal breaker if nvidia cards could not benefit 100%. There's a better chance of nvidia making its own api than adopting mantle with most features. My bet is nvidia wont do anything and stand pat. If its so open why no love for cayman or the 5000 series?
     
  2. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Because VLIW is something completely different to GCN.
     
  3. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

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    We already know that what Mantle does can be done with OpenGL. By AMD.
    http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amd-aims-to-give-opengl-a-big-boost-api-wont-be-the-bottleneck/
    Don't be so naive to these par of the course business, AMD knows Mantle will not be used by NVidia. Why else would they spend millions lobbying to EA to get it implemented in BF4 and Frostbite. To help everyone else?

    Simple answer. Just like G-Sync, which could have been done over time with existing standards, NVidia wanted it now and they wanted to get PR out of it. AMD's Mantle, which could have been done over time with an existing API, wanted it now and they wanted to get PR out of it.

    If a technology takes off, and they have it before the competition, it makes them look really good and on top of things, which is an important view to have of a tech company. Happens all the time between these companies in particular, SLI was first, it took off, then came crossfire. First was Eyefinity, it took off, then came Surround. And naturally, it can go the opposite way, and neither company wants to make a competing tech for something that may be doomed to fail.
    So they will talk smack on one another until it does come out, then the cards are really on the table. So, I suggest as an end user, you wait and see what happens. It's what they are doing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
  4. zymphad

    zymphad Member

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    Have you not read the Guru3D review of Mantle?

    Mantle is ONLY useful when you have a WEAK AMD APU... If you have a far superior, powerful Intel Quad, Mantle provides 3% improvement. 3 freaking %. Mantle is useful to compensate for a weak CPU, which makes sense since AMD's bulldozer has for the last half decade proven to be horribly weak. AMD has now even recognized their CPU just plain sucks. They don't even try to lie anymore about it. Mantle is useful if you are using an AMD Kaveri, otherwise it's a waste of your time.

    I don't see any reason why Nvidia should waste resources on Mantle. I plan on building a desktop with probably an R9 280X, but that's only because for the next 5 years, all games will be optimized for AMD hardware (PS4/XBone).

    But even though consoles are using the incredibly pathetic AMD APUs, doesn't mean you should join the Mantle bandwagon. Microsoft will NEVER let Mantle on their console. XBone is all about leveraging DX 11.2. Allowing Mantle will go against that since 11.2 has features to compensate for low level API weaknesses. And Sony has already implied they won't allow Mantle on the PS4. So that leaves PC Gamers. Really? I only know a few PC Gamers using weak AMD APUs, everyone else is on Intel Quads. Mantle is going to die not just because most APIs die vs OpenGL/DX, but because there won't be a demand for it.
     

  5. CybrSage

    CybrSage Member Guru

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    NVidia needs to start supporting it. Since AMD owns the cores of the current gen gaming platforms, and is also on many PCs, vendors will start programming for it in earnest. It makes it much simpler to port their console games to PCs - and vice versa.

    I have already made the choice that my next vid card will be an ATI card if NVidia does not support Mantle by then. I have no desire to upgrade my CPU and Mantle will help me delay that upgrade even longer.
     
  6. zymphad

    zymphad Member

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    Uh no they won't. Microsoft has already blogged that they WILL NOT ALLOW Mantle on their XBone. XBone is about DX 11.2. Microsoft will discontinue the XBone before they allow Mantle on it.

    Sony has made no plans to support Mantle. Their direct to hardware development is already superior to a low level API.

    On PC again, read the damn review. Mantle is only relevant if your CPU is garbage, like a weak AMD APU. Only a few devs paid to implement Mantle will. I doubt any other developers will see any relevance for it when they see majority of gamers have CPUs that are powerful enough to negate the need Mantle.
     
  7. ---TK---

    ---TK--- Ancient Guru

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    mantle aint on the consoles. Moot point.
     
  8. CybrSage

    CybrSage Member Guru

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    Someone is showing their fanboiness...why u so angry?

    Give it time, they will support it. As games require more power than the consoles can give due to the CPU limitations, they will support it. Money will win out.


    EDIT:

    Hallock admitted, “The clever thing about Mantle is that it’s very similar to the types of code these game developers are already creating for consoles, so the process of porting is quite simple for them.”
    http://www.pcgamesn.com/amds-mantle-api-how-it-works-and-why-pc-developers-will-adopt-it
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
  9. zymphad

    zymphad Member

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    Yup and upgrading your PC to an Intel i7 Quad makes a whole lot more sense than depending on Mantle. The i7 Quad will allow you to do a whole lot more. Maybe you want to encode with x264? Maybe you have an Android phone and want to develop Apps and build roms? Having an i7 Quad cuts down on compile times by 10x than if you have a weak AMD APU.
    - That's the main reason I bought an i7 4770K rather than a Kaveri. I really want a more powerful CPU to do some fun stuff aside from gaming where maybe Mantle can compensate.

    It's not about fanboyism. It's tiring to read why isn't Nvidia and Intel on board for AMD's Mantle and HSA? The folks you think are showing fanboyism are just telling the reality of the situation.

    There is zero software right now for the average consumer that uses HSA.

    There is no reason for any game developer to support Mantle if PC Gamers who buy high end GPU also buy powerful i7 Quads.... IF you got a weak GPU, it doesn't matter, a weak CPU should suffice. That GPU won't be CPU bound.

    I rather game developers focus on optimizing their game properly for DX 11.2 than waste resources on Mantle that is a huge disappointment.
    - Mantle would be relevant if it gave Intel i7 Quad owners a significant boost. But it doesn't. The boost it provides is equivalent to a slight overclock on the CPU.

    Also Robert Hallock is to bull**** Mantle to convince the ignorant to use it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
  10. CybrSage

    CybrSage Member Guru

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    The consoles do not have to use the PC version of Mantle, they can use the AMD created API that is (not so) amazingly close to Mantle that it makes it easy to port games to the PC once created for the consoles.

    Think a little bit before typing, guys. Do you really think AMD would not leverage their current position in the console world to aid them in the PC world?
     

  11. CybrSage

    CybrSage Member Guru

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    Depends - if money is not an object than sure...but I would recommend a Cray instead if money is not an object....

    But since most people who buy PCs buy mid to low end PCs, it makes a lot of sense. Game makers can produce games that play very well on a lot more PCs if they use Mantle. It gives them an edge they previously did not have.

    More people playing your game on higher graphics settings means more people who like your games...that means more sales.


    Really, this is all about making money, guys.
     
  12. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

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    No no no no. Do you really think these companies really see it that way?
    Mantle has nothing do to with consoles. THOUGH, I'm willing to bet they placed their cards in a way that people will think they will get some special treatment as a AMD user with Mantle because all the new consoles use their hardware.

    I'll tell you what 95% of devs are going to use in 2014 for PC games. DirectX.
    Obviously I pulled that out my bum, but you believe me. Now, 2015? Or even '16 or '17? That is something different, and here is what they are thinking.
    NVidia hopes that Mantle has flopped because they never added support for it and over the past 3 years only a handful of games that AMD lobbied to support the API actually use it (cough, physx, cough).
    AMD hopes that with the hype machine in full force, and the company covering all their bases, Mantle might only support a few games 3 year later. But, that wont matter, the hype machine will make sure that more and more people will buy their GPU's over the competition just because they are under the impression that they have to because it's the defacto GPU right now. Read zymphad's second paragraph in post #24 if you are unsure what I'm talking about.
     
  13. zymphad

    zymphad Member

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    Are you stupid? AMD doesn't have any say whether their API is on consoles. Microsoft will kill AMD APU before they let any developer to use an AMD API over the DX 11.2. Seriously, this isn't an opinion, they already have said this multiple times, they will now allow any third party API on their system.

    And did you not read that Sony's direct to hardware development is superior to ANY low level API?

    And without support of Intel or Nvidia, both AMD HSA and Mantle are going to flop. AMD has neither the market share or influence to do it alone. No one cares if ARM is on board with HSA, it's a stupid phone.
     
  14. Cyberdyne

    Cyberdyne Ancient Guru

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    Think for a second. Mantle does not make it easier to port. Mantle's code has nothing to do with that, a console already has tight access to the hardware.
     
  15. zymphad

    zymphad Member

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    EXACTLY. Console development is already superior to ANY low level API. A low level API is still a low level API. Consoles develop direct to hardware. API is only useful if you got multiple hardware, like DirectX or Mantle if you got various hardware from various OEMs etc. Consoles have ONE hardware. There is no variation, they can develop directly to that one piece of hardware. They don't need to worry if it will work on multiple hardware.
     

  16. CybrSage

    CybrSage Member Guru

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    Of course almost no one uses Mantle yet - it was just released. DirectX had the same issue when it was first released.

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-mantle-api-xbox-one-directx-11.2,24691.html


    It does not have to be a one for one exact language for the benefits of it to be easily seen by console game makers.
     
  17. ---TK---

    ---TK--- Ancient Guru

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    You talking to me? Because I stated a fact that mantle has nothing to do with consoles?
     
  18. CybrSage

    CybrSage Member Guru

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    Correct - and whose hardware is it? Would the commands used to control the hardware directly be related in any way to the commands offered by Mantle?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
  19. CybrSage

    CybrSage Member Guru

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    Nope, you were not angry in your post. Your post just ninja appeared on me between when I typed and clicked the post button. :)
     
  20. zymphad

    zymphad Member

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    Uh again, are you dumb? That is just saying that consoles don't have to worry about API overhead and supposedly a low level API like Mantle can bring that to PC.

    But if you read the current assessment of Mantle, it's useless since a powerful CPU negates that. Mantle is about GPU being held back by the CPU.
    - You'd have to assume person has a powerful enough GPU to be held back by CPU.
    - Then you'll have to assume the person who build the system was stupid and paired it with a CPU that would hold it back.

    Going with the assumptions above, Mantle is for the stupid PC Gamer who didn't know what CPU to use.

    If anyone is being a fanboy it's you. You're ignoring the reality of Mantle. I don't know what your basing your fanboyism on. 2.7% improvement is nothing to be a fanboy about.

    Nvidia is a big corporation and they have to make a cost benefit analysis. Admitting that AMD Mantle is superior to what they have will not just hurt them in using resources to support it, but it will also hurt their stocks. That's admitting to their share holders, AMD's Mantle is better than ours and we don't have something to compete with it. Considering Mantle has little to no benefit for anyone using a powerful NVidia GPU with an Intel CPU, it makes no sense for Nvidia to risk financial losses.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
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